Film Room - Terry Bradway

Brian Johnson (00:16.552)
Hey, listener, welcome to Talent Chasing, where we bring real world stories from the fields, courts, and pitches of Major League sports and of office and corporate talent. It's our job to amplify those hidden stories in finding, retaining, and motivating the best talent in the world. Because we know, as you know, no team exists anywhere without great talent. My name is Brian Johnson. I am a former Major League Baseball player and scout.

Jasper Spanjaart (00:44.172)
My name is Jasper Spangiot, I'm a journalist and filmmaker.

Chad (00:47.962)
And I'm Chad Sowash, recruitment industry veteran, startup angel, investor advisor, that kind of stuff. This episode, the important thing, because I'm excited about this, this episode is one of our film room series where we actually break down our favorite parts of our big interviews, like breaking down plays in the film room. You get it, right? That's what we're doing, Jasper. That's what we're doing. That's what we're doing.

Jasper Spanjaart (00:53.784)
former drill sergeant.

Jasper Spanjaart (01:09.944)
That's what we're doing, Chad. That's good that we're doing that. So in this week's film room session, we're breaking out our interview with Terry Bradway. So first and foremost, as has been well established on this podcast, I have the unfortunate sense of being a New York Jets fan. So Terry Bradway, actually, who drafted an awful lot of talented plays for the New York Jets and who was very, very important in one of our playoff runs that the Jets had. God, that was a long time ago. But

Chad (01:29.616)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper Spanjaart (01:38.218)
Like he can do no wrong for me. Yeah, who's counting 15 years of counting. But anyway, he talks about a lot of things that were very good. It was tough to find something that I thought was going to be good because everything was good. So I just wanted to send Chad a sound bite that was just the entire episode. But there was one second in particular where he mentions two awesome sports films, Moneyball and Trouble with the Curve. So my sound bite is all about where is Terry on the sort of spectrum of

Brian Johnson (01:38.802)
Who's counting?

Chad (02:01.19)
yeah.

Jasper Spanjaart (02:07.852)
analytics versus scouting, scouting instinct. So we'll play that.

Jasper Spanjaart (03:13.058)
So I think this is a subject that we're all pretty passionate about. And I'll make this sort of quick transition to the business world because what we sort of see and what I see is just companies want data, data, data, data. I hear it everywhere. Like we need to measure our sales. We need to measure our recruitment. We need to measure retention. We need to measure the quality of hire, even if we don't know what the heck that actually means. Like sure, like data is great, but don't over rely on it. Like it's true for sports. It's true for business in my, in what I'm seeing and thinking.

Chad (03:26.118)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper Spanjaart (03:42.254)
Don't forget these numbers that you're putting it down to are usually just people. The numbers come down to people. And I love the sort of segue that he makes like, sure, if I see a guy miss eight tackles, then that's analytics. But it's also something I can see. I can see his response to the missed tackles. I can see his reactions to that. But I think it's good to get Brian's point of view on this because I vividly remember our first conversation quite some time ago now.

where you spoke about how money will ruin the certain aspect of his cow's life, right? So without further ado, Brian Johnson.

Brian Johnson (04:19.238)
Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree with everything you said. And I love how Terry just kind of encapsulated, right? That the analytics is great, but you also need a human piece. You need the human beings evaluating the same time. That's where we're going. That's where every industry is going to be at some point is the pendulum is going to swing back to the middle where we realize as a society that we need both and both are now we're now we're really kicking into gear. Now we're really doing something great when we get both going at the same time. So

Yeah, I loved everything Terry had to say as well. But yeah, with the Moneyball piece, Moneyball, the movie just happened to come along about the right time when analytics was really hitting into sports. so analytics, really the leaders of teams at that point that were all analytics folks, they really glommed on to that movie. And because the old crusty scout is really depicted as a dummy that only follows his head and so well, just feel this guy's good.

Chad (05:11.142)
Yeah.

Jasper Spanjaart (05:11.382)
hope.

Brian Johnson (05:16.442)
No, it's what Terry, Terry Bradway said. That's what 99 % of the scouts are, are guys that are looking at the game, evaluating, like you say, Jasper, how is this guy responding? What are the human elements that are going on here? And he may be awful and the analytics may not show it. Or it may be the other way around or somewhere in between. That somewhere in between is where you really need to have the information so that the leaders can make a decision. Are we going to take this person or are we going to make the decision in business or not? Are we going to do this or do that?

You need all the details to make good sound decisions. And Terry hits that really well.

Jasper Spanjaart (05:52.182)
I think the sort of problem I have with it is that you see sort of, especially in the sports world, I think it's exactly similar in the business world, but you see companies and sports teams wanting to copy that. Like you see the Tampa Bay Rays who've been fairly successful in that sense, but they haven't won a World Series. Like they're trying to do the Oakland A's route of spending as little money as possible by just following the numbers. And it becomes sort of a craze where my team, again, unfortunate, I'm a Miami Marlins fan. I don't even know why.

Chad (05:52.186)
Yeah.

Chad (06:14.822)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper Spanjaart (06:20.898)
But they just, they just hired a guy who was with the race and he's just about the numbers. Everything's about the numbers and then they've got one of the lowest payrolls in the entire MLB. Like you're not going to compete with the Dodgers and the Mets anyway, but you could spend a little bit more surely. Like you're, you're still a quite a big market team. Miami is not, it's not a small market team. And the weird part is now they're at that sort of combination point where they've got all these young plays who may look great in the analytics department, but they still just lost a hundred games this season.

Right, so where is that trade-off?

Brian Johnson (06:51.666)
And people forget, I'm sorry, people forget Moneyball, that team didn't win a championship. That team didn't win anything. They just had a nice old winning streak in the middle of the season. And so you're right. So yeah, which is great. But if Brad Pitt doesn't play that role, is that really gonna be something that takes over the world like it did? Probably not.

Jasper Spanjaart (06:59.072)
Exactly.

Chad (07:04.069)
Mm.

Jasper Spanjaart (07:04.363)
Which was great.

Jasper Spanjaart (07:14.126)
So Brad Pitt ruined Scout's lives, that's a good...

Chad (07:14.374)
Yeah, well.

Brian Johnson (07:17.804)
It's his fault.

Chad (07:19.462)
Is that the nugget we're taking? Anyway, so if you take a look at the Oakland A's at that point, and again, they're not gonna outspend the Yankees. I that was really Billy Beans. I I don't have that kind of budget, so we've gotta do something. So I think it was incredibly innovative to be able to get into quant, right? To get into kind of quant analytics. But again, you can push it too far. So much of a good thing turns bad after a while.

Brian Johnson (07:21.8)
You

Jasper Spanjaart (07:37.836)
It was, yeah.

Chad (07:49.068)
One of the things, if you take a look at analytics, that it's not going to tell you about is toxic employees. Right? You can bring in somebody who's a hell of a salesperson, marketer, doesn't matter, right? The best designer, best developer, but if they are toxic, they can screw your whole team. And this is not an individual sport, right? mean, these companies, companies are not individual sports. So the culture, the actual systems,

in the actual mindset of the organization, you could have just a few key players, screw all of that up. And I think looking specifically just at the numbers, obviously is, is, is never, is never a good way to go.

Chad (08:35.492)
Brian.

Brian Johnson (08:37.08)
is it back to me?

Chad (08:37.862)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's your setup. He's just in the, he's in the moment.

Jasper Spanjaart (08:39.566)
We look like a bunch of amateurs now.

Brian Johnson (08:41.98)
We are amateurs. But no, great point, Chad. Let's hear the next clip so I can know what the hell is coming next.

Chad (08:47.511)
Okay.

Brian Johnson (11:27.012)
textbook explanation of how to build a culture that is inclusive, that values the talent that's in the door, and therefore is going to get absolutely everybody's best effort, everybody's best idea, everybody's best production. And it starts with number one is, well, let's think about culture to begin with. A shitty culture is one where no one wants to stay there.

Chad (11:45.037)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (11:54.406)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Johnson (11:55.038)
A great culture is where everybody wants to stay there. So that's the difference between a good culture and bad culture. Right. So how do you get people to want to stay there? Your CEO has the humility to understand it's not all about him or her. So walking the company two times a day, speaking to somebody different every day, having a project for different departments or the whole organization to do by reading a book. What is reading book do? Expands our knowledge base.

Jasper Spanjaart (12:02.328)
Simple.

Brian Johnson (12:24.41)
expands our ideas, kicks off other ideas that we may have. So many, so many just, just I love the way he talked about also having a book for every job or every department as to what they're supposed to do. So that Chad's point earlier, bus plus one, if that leader gets knocked off by a bus, the other people know how to pick it up and can continue the ball forward and move forward as an organization, as a team, whatever it may be.

Jasper Spanjaart (12:39.629)
Great.

Brian Johnson (12:53.948)
My goodness, I mean, just key nuggets from him all the way around.

Chad (12:57.606)
yeah. Business, business, business, Yeah, I can tell even more than Jasper now. So let's talk about the position players piece. I've seen this happen so many times that let's say for instance, you get a great person into a sales role, but they just are not comfortable closing, right? They are good at everything else, but they can't close. Well, in sales, you got to close, right?

Jasper Spanjaart (12:57.86)
Key nuggets, man. Key nuggets.

Brian Johnson (13:00.26)
I'm on the nuggets pit. I love nuggets.

Jasper Spanjaart (13:18.446)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (13:23.726)
Instead of getting rid of that underperforming salesperson, they're probably amazing in customer service. Right? And being able to, if you think of it from a business standpoint, making that lateral transition, first and foremost, if you have an open position, you've got somebody who's already onboarded into the organization. They already know the organization. You've already gone through the education of the organization, right? They also have a different viewpoint from one of the other departments.

So instead of just getting rid of somebody and ejecting them out of the organization, look for other areas in which they have passion. And if this person was really passionate about that front end piece of sales, well hell, that in itself is customer service, right? Customer service is pretty much sales without the clothes. You know, you're constantly talking, you're constantly having that. So if you want more productivity, if you want less attrition, if you do want to have that better culture and you see that kind of internal mobility,

That's what people wanna see. They don't wanna see people jumping out the door or getting kicked out the door. They want to see that this is a place where everybody says this is a family. That's all bullshit. Let's just get to that, okay? But they do wanna see a place where the human being is actually, they're focused on, as opposed to just the numbers. As we just talked about the numbers, the analytics and what have you. This is the person and that's how you build a culture. Not to mention, that's how you get to productivity faster.

Jasper Spanjaart (14:29.55)
You

Jasper Spanjaart (14:50.648)
True. Now I think my biggest takeaway is just his self-awareness, right? When he says like, I'm not the smartest guy in the room. Like I get people in the right seats. I don't micromanage. Like, I think I don't need to add anything because that is just vital. think for a successful leader, you can't be great in, you can be great at one thing, but you can't, you can't expect yourself to be great at everything. Like you need people around you that are great at something that you're terrible at. be aware of your weaker side because you know, we're not.

Chad (14:58.896)
Join the club.

Jasper Spanjaart (15:19.98)
Not everyone's Jesus. Like we can't be fantastic at everything. We need, we need, need to diversify, man. You need to think to yourself, but, but like getting that, but it's, sounds so simple. Everything he says sounds so simple in terms of building a culture, getting people expectations. Like, okay, this is your book. This is what you do. This is your role. And let's see, and let's just talk. Let's just walk around different departments and just talk to people. It sounds so simple, but I think getting out and doing that every day is tough for most leaders, but

Brian Johnson (15:23.675)
Yeah.

Chad (15:44.996)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper Spanjaart (15:49.004)
It's so simple. Just do that. Do that at the basic minimum, like the core of it. Do that. Do exactly what Terry just described.

Brian Johnson (15:59.078)
And I love how Chad talked about last show, make everything simpler, like make it easy to understand. That's why Apple is so popular, right? Cause the phones are easy to operate and make it simple and not more complex. And we talked about that, right? Where people who don't know shit and are trying to trick you into paying them money are going to make it more complex. So that should ring, set off alarm bells in your head already. Anyone's trying to make things more complex, you don't want to work with.

Chad (15:59.302)
Go ahead.

Jasper Spanjaart (16:15.352)
Yeah.

Chad (16:26.534)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Break it down.

Jasper Spanjaart (16:28.494)
Some free life advice from Brian Johnson there. Yeah, that's good.

Chad (16:32.57)
So this last clip, we're always talking about identifying, recruiting, and attaining top talent. Well, it's not always everything it's cracked up to be.

Chad (17:23.056)
So how many times have we taken a look at, let's take a look at the Chicago Bears, their quarterback situation, right? Let's just get a new quarterback and throw them right into the old system. That's going to be better. The Cleveland Browns, how many quarter quarterbacks have gone through the Cleveland Browns? We do this in, in corporate America, in small town America every single day. It's one of those things like, if we get this guy, we get this girl, we get these, we're done.

Jasper Spanjaart (17:31.793)
yeah.

Chad (17:52.794)
We've got it made and that's not how it works. Right. As we talked about before, culture, systems, mindset, you're bringing somebody from outside into your, your team, right? They've got to be the right mindset. mean, I'm not a big fan of a lot of these, you know, assessment, organizations that are out there. Cause I think some of them are mumbo jumbo on magic, but there is something to be said.

about leadership, right? And having that leader have a legit talk with the top talent about the expectations, not just the expectations of meeting your numbers, whether that's development or product or sales or customer service, but also the expectations of how you treat the people around you, how you engage the people around you, how you lift up the people around you. And we see that in professional sports where guys are all about me, they want the payday, they want the money.

And then you get the guys who are actually lifting other guys up and they become a team much faster. And that to me, obviously is the basics of leadership.

Jasper Spanjaart (18:51.918)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper Spanjaart (19:02.414)
And I think the important thing is also to do that continuously, right? Because companies will put an emphasis on, okay, we've got a great onboarding scheme in place. Like for the first month, we've got your back. Like you're going to meet all these different people. We're going to hold your hand and walk you through the company. And after that month is done, goodbye. Good luck to you. Yeah. You can report to HR if anything's wrong. No, like keep continuously onboarding people because it's the simplest thing you can do to keep people on board. can all...

Chad (19:14.578)
yeah.

Chad (19:18.096)
Gone. Kicked out the nest.

Jasper Spanjaart (19:31.864)
complain about retention, like, yeah, people are walking away from the company after six months. Yeah, because you're not retaining, actively retaining them. You can only do that if you keep, like Chad just said, like if someone's great for a sales role, but it's not closing, try and find them a different role and try and find where these people want to go in their careers and help them rather than pushing back and saying, well, you're not meeting your goals. Well, that's great. Everyone can see that, but try and get people into the right positions. Again, sounds simple, but.

Go ahead and do that. Keep talking to people. If you don't just onboard them for a month and let them go.

Brian Johnson (20:07.794)
Yeah, that's the Achilles heel of this analytics craze, right? Is that we're not the humility is not there with analytics because there's this there's this all encompassing confidence or overconfidence that because the numbers say this, therefore I have all the information that I need. There's nothing else that's needed, which is baloney, right? There's you can you can manipulate the numbers to make it sound or say whatever you want it to say. And so that's where a lot of companies and teams

Jasper Spanjaart (20:23.714)
Hmm.

Chad (20:34.822)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Johnson (20:37.83)
get, get hurt is that they rely so much on that. We see it so much in baseball, especially where you have the field. We talked about this before the field managers making, trying to make decisions on the field, but everything is being decided upon nowadays in the front office. But then after the game, when you lose and your team is awful, the field managers, they're just to answer all the questions, take all the heat. Nobody to this day, 2024, nobody in the front office has ever stepped out in front of the mic. So you know what? We screwed up.

Jasper Spanjaart (20:59.16)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Johnson (21:07.07)
Our numbers screwed up in here and we made the wrong recommendation to the manager on the field. We fucked it up. No one has said that and we'll ever said that because the Achilles heel, as I mentioned, with this analytics mentality is that we don't make mistakes. Numbers don't lie. Right. How many times do you hear that bullshit? The numbers lie every freaking day.

Jasper Spanjaart (21:13.579)
Let's hope.

Jasper Spanjaart (21:25.976)
Hmm.

Chad (21:29.766)
Well, and also we're going to see not just statistics and numbers be a problem. We're going to start seeing technology be a problem where companies believe they can actually replace workers. And we've seen that. And then we've also seen, well, they've had to hire them back. So this is again, don't get me wrong. is, know, there is a huge change and transformation in

Jasper Spanjaart (21:48.654)
Yeah.

Chad (21:58.0)
companies today with, you know, with generative AI and many of the different technologies that are, that are available, jobs are going to change. Some jobs are going to go away. Good. Cause those jobs sucked in the first place. Right. So I think it's again, it's up to us to be able to focus on the leadership piece and how do we lift people up? And that might be into a new position into a different department. Right. Exactly. Exactly. All right. Well, listener, well, thanks again for joining us for this.

Jasper Spanjaart (22:22.638)
Well done.

Chad (22:28.282)
Film room session about Terry, man. I can't believe that dude, all of the knowledge around, and he was with the Jets. I mean, they're not a great team. Anyway, look for more amazing interviews and play-by-play breakdowns coming to your favorite podcast platform soon. That's Talent Chasing. Share it with everybody. Appreciate it, guys. Thanks for joining. Later.

Jasper Spanjaart (22:40.928)
a way to rub it in.

Brian Johnson (22:53.416)
See ya!

Jasper Spanjaart (22:53.496)
Go Jets.

Chad (22:59.344)
See, it's doing it again.

Brian Johnson (22:59.582)
I have you know I'm at 99 % uploading

Chad (23:02.682)
There it is.

Jasper Spanjaart (23:03.372)
Right.