Film Room: Rodney Gilmore

Brian Johnson (00:15.113)
Hey, listener, welcome to Talent Chasing where we bring real world stories from the fields, the courts, and the pitches of Major League sports and offices of corporate talent. It's our job to amplify those hidden stories and finding, retaining, and motivating the best talent in the world. Because no team exists, as we know, anywhere without great talent. My name is Brian Johnson, former Major League Baseball player and scout.

Jasper Spanjaart (00:41.004)
My name is Jasper Spangot, I'm a journalist and filmmaker.

Chad (00:44.656)
And I'm Chad Sowash, Recruitment Industry veteran. And this episode is part of our film room series where we break down our favorite parts of the big interviews, kind of like, you know, breaking down the big plays in the film room after the game.

Jasper Spanjaart (00:59.48)
So we're sort of pretending that we're actual athletes here, but that's kind of fun. So in this week's film room, we're breaking down an interview with all around nice guy and American college football analyst for ABC and ESPN, Rodney Gilmore. And since I'm talking, let's start with the soundbite I chose where Rodney talks about being on the summer team with some of baseball's biggest stars back then and backing himself as the best player.

Chad (01:26.278)
here we go.

Jasper Spanjaart (02:17.27)
It's just so good. think Brian, maybe for our audience, those who are not familiar with the game of baseball per se, but could you explain the type of players that he was playing with at that time?

Brian Johnson (02:29.055)
Yeah, so where he was, Hank Thomas and coaches a summer league team, right? Just like any summer league team or anywhere, youth summer league team around the world. And so his teammates were Ricky Henderson, Hall of Famer in Major League Baseball, Gary Pettis, who was a center fielder forever in Major League Baseball and has been a Major League Baseball coach for 20 years as well.

Chad (02:49.702)
Dang.

Chad (02:55.045)
huh. Wow.

Brian Johnson (02:57.553)
And then there was Lloyd Mosby, who was a big time star for the Toronto Blue Jays for several years, a bunch of years. So all three of those guys, big time players in the major leagues and Rodney Gilmore, who fair enough, he got hurt in college. So he didn't really get a whole lot of baseball done, but played baseball, football in college. But again, his whole mindset of it's me. I have the confidence, I can outplay all these guys at a young age. And it was really cool to see, but that's the background for it.

Chad (03:02.394)
or three?

Jasper Spanjaart (03:25.558)
Yeah, I thought it'd be great. It's just because obviously we're baseball nerds. So we're sort of fully aware as to who he's talking about, who he's comparing yourself to. But I think for me, like why this sound bite stood out to me is like confidence is so important, like in anything you do and having that bit of self -belief in your career, in your ability to do something, you know, whether you're leading people in there in an office or you're just doing your job, like it confidence is so important.

Well, we talk about the realm of talent chasing and you have to be confident, of course, in your ability to sort of spot that talent to begin with. But to push that aside, like I want to pose that sort of question to you guys. Like, where do we sort of draw the line? You guys think like in being confident in your job versus not entirely knowing what you're doing because, you know, we've got the whole fake it till you make it.

Chad (04:15.472)
Yeah. huh. Yeah.

Jasper Spanjaart (04:17.344)
stuff out there and I think some of it is valid, some of the things is like you can overthink your own ability to a certain extent but yeah let me just put that question to you guys.

Chad (04:28.206)
It's confidence is a lot. mean, it helps. Let's just say that, It's an ingredient in success, but outcomes matter more. So yeah, you can have somebody coming in, which I'm sure we all have and Rodney obviously was. You can have all the confidence in the world, but again, at the end of the day, if you had a crappy batting average or you can't smash your sales goals, I mean, it really doesn't matter at that point, right? You can be the most confident person in the

Jasper Spanjaart (04:44.078)
You

Chad (04:57.53)
but outcomes matter.

Brian Johnson (04:59.933)
Yeah, I honestly go ahead Jasper. You will so I was thinking a little bit differently. But along the same line was I really appreciate what Rodney was saying is that he was very much in the moment. So whether you are in corporate world or sports world, you're in the moment, you're focused on what you're doing right now. And hey, I put the time in I put the work in so I can take anybody or I can meet any goal or I can achieve anything with me and my team or whatever.

Jasper Spanjaart (05:01.89)
No, go on, go on.

Jasper Spanjaart (05:12.44)
Yeah.

Chad (05:13.329)
yeah. Yeah.

Brian Johnson (05:26.695)
And so it really was a cool thing to see as a kid that he did, that he had this trait in him, right? Cause we got to hear a whole lot about his family, you know, so you kind of see where, how he was built up, how he was molded as a young kid. But being in the moment, not worrying about where he's going to be tomorrow. Cause cause again, when he brought up what the coach said, it's like he hadn't really even thought about it up to that point. He was focused on, he was focused on the task at hand. And then when the coach suggested,

Chad (05:34.96)
Mm

Jasper Spanjaart (05:44.173)
Yeah.

Chad (05:48.912)
I don't know. Yeah.

Jasper Spanjaart (05:49.761)
No, true.

Brian Johnson (05:54.865)
only one of you is gonna make it, all of a sudden it was a revelation like, of course it's gonna be me. And so I thought that was cool for lesson learned.

Jasper Spanjaart (05:59.864)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jasper Spanjaart (06:04.716)
I think what you also allude to and something I really love in my favorite coach of all time that I've studied, read plenty of books about is Nick Saban. And obviously very, very prestigious, won pretty much all the titles he could at Alabama and in college football. But I think he was so process oriented versus wanting to win because he saw winning as a byproduct of the process of doing your job, being excellent at your job. And then winning will be the outcome.

Chad (06:31.47)
Mm

Jasper Spanjaart (06:34.254)
But as a player, can scoreboard watch, he sort of put it, like 64 -0 up against some bad college team from Mississippi. He didn't care. He still wanted his players to execute whatever they needed to do. I think that sort of mindset is so important because if you, I mean, I wouldn't say, you know, keep running the ball or keep trying to pass the ball if you're up 60 points, but like know the situation, be aware of your situation, but it's, it's, it's same in that sense where it's

Focus on the now, don't focus on whatever outcome you want to to achieve in the future. I think that's a big point.

Chad (07:08.797)
Yeah. Well, I think for me, Rodney thought he was the guy, right? But the world smacked him in the face, said you were not the guy. Rodney's still a very successful guy. He's been at ESPN for 30 years, right? So I think this is a message definitely to the younger generation that are out there today. Say, you're gonna get smacked in the face, but it's all about getting up, right? It is always all about getting up. Whether you're in sports,

Jasper Spanjaart (07:12.044)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jasper Spanjaart (07:25.157)
yeah.

Chad (07:35.372)
or you're not, you know, maybe you don't have a contingency in place. It doesn't mean that not being confident, and pushing forward, isn't part of just life in itself. So yeah, you gotta get back up. And that's obviously what Rod Rodney did.

Jasper Spanjaart (07:50.798)
Absolutely.

Brian Johnson (07:50.845)
Yeah, yeah, I love that too. And I love the team idea and thanks for bringing up Nick Saban because he's fantastic. I love reading the stuff that he talks about now. But, you know, and to your point of, you know, running up the score, right, is things that we see in youth sports now where they just annihilate different teams. And what Nick Saban talks about, and I think what you all kind of touched on as well, is that you could be excellent without rubbing somebody's nose in it, right?

Chad (07:58.011)
Yeah.

Jasper Spanjaart (08:00.194)
Yeah.

Jasper Spanjaart (08:07.982)
Mmm.

Brian Johnson (08:17.492)
You can really focus on the execution of the pass and the execution of putting, you know, making a screen or running a play or whatever it may be. It's the execution of it. That doesn't mean you have to, you know, obliterate another team. That has nothing to do with it. You can execute things and still, you know, pull back the reins a little bit when it comes to actually running up the score. Because I think it's important to think of your team.

Chad (08:28.336)
Mm.

Jasper Spanjaart (08:40.398)
Absolutely.

Brian Johnson (08:45.359)
is one thing is kind of a subset of society, right? But then also you're also a part of the both the team of both teams on the field or your department or the competitions you're going against. There's there's honor in victory. There's honor in defeat. There's honor in competition. And I think the honor piece is something that we lose in our society of trying to get likes our society of trying to go viral, our society trying to get paid for being an influencer and not really doing anything online because we want the easiest gig around.

till we can get paid a lot of money for it. That's normal for human beings to want that, right? But in order to achieve that, sometimes we forget those very things that are really, make it important to be a teammate of the world, of society, of your team, your department, your company, whatever it may be. Being a good teammate and competitor is a big deal.

Chad (09:36.912)
Well, running up the score is something that corporate America really loves to do, right? They love to run up the score. The biggest problem with that is burning your people out. And right, that's one of the things that you've got to think about as well. know, from a sports standpoint, you can definitely have your guys on the field too long, right? And it's going to hurt you in later parts of the season. Same thing in building sales teams. You can burn the hell out of some really good people and then they're gone. They're out the door, right?

Jasper Spanjaart (09:42.05)
Mmm.

Chad (10:03.622)
and you lost that great talent because you burnt them out because you ran up the score, right? You've got to think of the health of your organization, the health of your people. And if you're thinking of your people first, right? You're thinking of your people first and you're actually caring and giving a shit about the people then, and that's an entirely different discussion. But I agree 100 % with the running up the score. In the corporate side of the house, that's what we were told that we need to do. But in long...

Jasper Spanjaart (10:30.413)
Yeah.

Chad (10:32.276)
Short -term, might be good. Long -term, not so much.

Jasper Spanjaart (10:36.622)
Amen.

Chad (10:37.328)
Thanks, Brian. You ready for yours? Alright. Okay. Here's Brian's clip.

Brian Johnson (10:39.923)
I am. Let's do it.

Brian Johnson (11:36.403)
So Roddy, you really paints a really great picture here of so many times nowadays we hear of a hot mic here, hot mic there, people saying things. For me, what jumped out to it for what Roddy was talking about, it's really just kind of how you live, right? I was on eight different broadcasts. I was the color commentator on eight different major league baseball broadcasts. So I went through that whole process, the producer.

Chad (11:44.4)
Mm -hmm.

Jasper Spanjaart (11:45.57)
Hmm.

Brian Johnson (12:01.501)
the person right there with the mic and you're working with, again, the whole teammate concept comes into play. But it also is how do you operate, right? If you are having in your personal conversations, you're saying things that are very, you know, provocative or racist or sexist or whatever it may be. If you're talking that way, it's going to come out on the air at some point or during the hot mic period. So it really comes into questions like it doesn't matter with somebody mistakenly

Jasper Spanjaart (12:07.192)
Hmm.

Jasper Spanjaart (12:23.554)
Hmm, true.

Brian Johnson (12:30.703)
you on the mic. You said it. It's your words and the way that you put it out there. So we really have to be responsible for how we carry ourselves again. All of our stuff carries over from sports and the corporate world. You have to be responsible for how you carry yourself and how you treat people and how you go about it, how therefore you view others that are way over there that you may never have contact with. For me, it was a much deeper statement that Rodney was talking about. It's like, hey, we're responsible for what we say or do. So

Be aware of that and don't worry about the hot mic. Just take care of how you perceive other people that may be different.

Jasper Spanjaart (13:07.542)
I love that analogy. love that analogy. I'm reminded by sort of that. I'm going to quote another American football coach here, but Tony Dungy who said, who said like the true character of a man is when no one's watching. And I've that sentence is always stuck by me because it's, it's so true. Cause you are what you do when no one's watching. Cause you think, you know, I'm not going to get caught. I'm, can say something about this situation. I'm no one's going to hear it anyway. Like that, because that is true to what you are doing and what you're saying. So.

Chad (13:07.686)
Yeah.

Chad (13:14.806)
huh.

Brian Johnson (13:18.569)
Yeah, love that.

Jasper Spanjaart (13:35.82)
I love the point you made, Brian. think it's so important that we keep that in mind for every situation. You don't need to overanalyze any word that's coming out of your mouth. If we were to do that in this episode, we'd go crazy anyway. But it's so important just to be self -aware as to what you're saying and what you're putting out in the world and being willing to learn too. none of us are perfect. So just being willing to learn and learn from different...

perspective from different people. think it's actually invaluable.

Chad (14:06.436)
Yeah, the teamwork part was, what I got, right? The producer was being a good teammate, right? was, taking care of you. It was almost like a mentor, right? So was that to me, you know, as a leader in an organization, you're going to see your employees do stupid shit. You're going to see him say stupid shit. You're going to see it. You're going to see and say, and that is when it's up to you, right? Not to lash out, but to mentor, to lead, to guide, to help.

Jasper Spanjaart (14:09.336)
Hmm.

Jasper Spanjaart (14:24.795)
yeah.

Chad (14:35.012)
them understand, right? And I think the hardest part is when that individual is a great performer, right? You know, so being able to lead not just the ones who need help, but the ones who don't think they need help, right? So in this case, Rodney, incredibly humble guy. mean, you know, and he, I love this interview just from the standpoint of being able to tap into the things that he saw that we might've never

Jasper Spanjaart (14:43.374)
Mmm.

Chad (15:05.399)
never seen.

Brian Johnson (15:07.475)
Yeah, and I think, you know, think branding comes into play too, alongside of the teamwork piece, right? Because, you know, personal branding is kind of a newer term in the most recent generation, right? It's, you know, it's valid. it's, oftentimes it gets a bad slight because again, we're falling into that, the likes piece and going viral piece and all that. But your branding is something that's always going on. If you're an entrepreneur in any part of the world.

Chad (15:12.454)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Chad (15:29.648)
Sure, sure.

Brian Johnson (15:36.005)
your branding is your company. So therefore, you know everybody's watching. You know the market is watching you, your investors are watching, your partners are watching, your employees are watching, your clients or your customers are watching you. So you know as an entrepreneur that you have to be on point with everything you say or do. I think sometimes we lose that in the corporate space or working for a bigger company. Like, no one's going to see it. I'm just going to take this pencil. I'm just going to take this whatever.

Chad (15:59.408)
Mm.

Jasper Spanjaart (16:02.541)
Bye.

Brian Johnson (16:03.463)
I'm going cut this corner on sales and like, I'm going to flood these numbers a little bit and make sure that, you know, I, get in the right space. I just think it's important from Rodney's piece and Rodney's standpoint is that don't forget we're always branding. So it's always important that we're aware of what we're doing and we're responsible for what we do always.

Chad (16:19.333)
Yes.

Agreed.

Jasper Spanjaart (16:21.752)
Can I flip that into a question for you guys? Because you've both have had longer careers than I have. putting, just put, yeah, it's a nice way of calling you all Chad, it's fine. No, but has there been a time for either of you where you've had a point in your career where you really look up to someone and that someone does something where you go, I sort of, that's not the decision I would have made. Just put it mildly there. And how did you sort of, because,

Chad (16:27.693)
Thanks for calling us old Jasper.

Chad (16:49.008)
Mm -hmm.

Jasper Spanjaart (16:51.362)
We're all going to experience that at some point. We look up to someone, someone does something disappointing. But how do guys handle that? You don't need to name names, obviously, I mean, or do, but it's your podcast. It's our podcast. We can do whatever we want.

Chad (17:03.352)
It so I think yeah, I think as as as having mentors and then becoming a mentor that we start to understand as we're younger, we look for this this vision of perfection that doesn't exist. So we set expectations that really aren't achievable. And then we set those expectations for our mentors, which are not achievable. And then they always say, you know, never meet your heroes. Well, that's because they're human. And those humans are flawed, right? So

I think it's one of those things in being a mentor. And this is not my mentor did not do this. So I did come, my hopes did come crashing down as a mentor. Now I am right out in front of, know, their face. They look, I am one of the most flawed individuals ever. know some stuff you're going to take some stuff. You're going to like it. You're not going to like some. don't expect you to be, you know, another version of me, right? That is not what this, that's not what mentorship's about.

So yeah, I think it's literally trying to cast that mold of look, you're gonna create your own. This is my mold, but you're gonna create your own. And hopefully I can help you through that journey.

Brian Johnson (18:11.741)
Yeah, that's a great point. would completely agree with that is that our expectations are off to begin with. You know, I think of the first time my parents kind of, where I was kind of look at them like, eh, okay, you know, I don't know if I can roll with that, you know, mom or dad or whatever, just normal stuff, right? But I remember at that point, I think that, you know, for all of us, that's kind of a big piece of becoming an adult. But yeah, I'm thinking to your question, Joshua, I'm thinking a whole bunch of times where,

Chad (18:23.086)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Johnson (18:40.017)
I just couldn't respect the boss that I was working for and in sports and out of sports all over. And that's big deal. And we have to manage that. Just like what Chad was saying for me is that I have to manage what kind of expectations I get from them, but I also have to manage how I respond. And so am I going to shut down and like, well, I don't like her, I don't respect her, so I'm not going to do anything. Or do I, you know, cut them a little bit of slack and say, okay, whatever, I'm not perfect either.

Chad (18:44.068)
Yeah.

Brian Johnson (19:09.279)
So there may be things they don't like about me, but let's let's try to work together and get this done. So Yeah, I think there's I feel like I'm hyper critical of myself But I'm also hyper critical of other people and that's just kind of I think that's you know That's a learned behavior But and you got to be able to manage whatever it is You think is right or wrong? You got to be able to manage it because there's six billion people on this planet and not everybody thinks the same as you do

Chad (19:30.128)
Mm

Chad (19:37.112)
Amen. Amen. Okay. Are you guys ready for the last clip? I want to, I'm getting antsy. I want to share the Rodney's clip. So this last clip of Rodney was just, it was incredibly impactful to me. So let's go ahead and roll and we'll talk about it on the other side.

Jasper Spanjaart (19:38.069)
Yep.

Jasper Spanjaart (19:42.082)
Go for it. Go for it.

Chad (21:55.91)
Yeah, so I chose this clip because of how many companies are starting to pump the brakes on diversity, equity and inclusion programs are just shutting them down entirely without understanding just how important they are. It's telling that in the 30 years Rodney has been with ESPN, understanding this, you know, these types of real world stories and real impact of what diversity, equity and inclusion means.

is important for everyday workers. I don't believe these stories are being told enough. And when SHRM, the Society of Human Resource Management, a huge professional HR organization, when SHRM relabels their new programs, IND, inclusion and diversity, they took out equity entirely and they moved diversity into the background. I find that problematic. And I want to make sure that we don't allow equity

Jasper Spanjaart (22:42.701)
Ehh

Chad (22:50.544)
to be removed and we don't allow diversity to take a back seat. Women who are being paid less for doing the same job, they deserve equity, right? And we're not there yet. People like Rod, you know, being in the room for major discussions can help a company from falling flat on their faces and losing massive amounts of brand loyalty and revenues. And I know, Brian, this is something that's very near and dear to your heart.

I tried to cut this down to a minute, but I couldn't. There was just too much good stuff from Ronnie. So what do you think about it?

Brian Johnson (23:27.111)
Yeah, there's a whole lot here to dig into. I really liked that Rodney brought it up and I appreciate your comments about it, Chad, because you're right. Diversity, equity, inclusion is getting attacked throughout the country and the United States and all over the world really in different forms, looking different. But I think as Rodney talked about that when George Floyd was publicly executed, that

created a firestorm, which is a healthy thing, which is something that that's how change really happens in societies, right? Protests, people burning stuff down, whatever it might be. Not that you condone that, right? But that's it's just it's a it's a example of exasperation of desperation where, hey, you have to take it seriously, whatever. But what happened after George Floyd, it was kind of haphazard in the United States, right? In the United States.

the chief diversity officer all of a sudden became the number one job in the land, right? And so the goal was to, because again, for folks that may be listening may not understand, a lot of times in trying to create a diverse company, A lot of the lower levels of companies will have a bunch of women and people of color in it and gay folks and Middle Eastern folks, whoever it be, there'll be a mixture of folks on the lower levels of companies, but not in the leadership.

Leadership is still all white males, for the most part, in a lot of companies. So that doesn't make white males bad people. It just means, hey, the mixture of skill sets, the mixture of life experiences is valuable in every level of an organization. So I think what's happening with the criticism of diversity, equity, inclusion, we can turn that also into a good thing. And the sherm move was horrible, and it's like a firestorm. People were very upset about that. So thank you for bringing that up.

But I think also these CDOs, the chief diversity officers and these diversity groups within organizations, they weren't given a strategy. They're like, hey, here are some people of color. Let's give them a job. Let's come over there. Huh? No resources, no strategic goal and things they hit. So to the people's defense,

Chad (25:30.043)
Mm.

Jasper Spanjaart (25:31.832)
Hmm.

Chad (25:34.53)
Or resources or resources. Yeah.

Jasper Spanjaart (25:34.67)
Yeah, more resources, yeah.

Chad (25:42.616)
Exactly.

Brian Johnson (25:46.463)
They walked into a losing situation when they're working with the best diversity within these companies and the companies were wasting money on this because they tried to put a bandaid on something that was very systemic. So I think it can be a healthy thing what we're going through now to reevaluate and to make sure, hey, when we do diversity stuff, let's have a strategy behind it. If it doesn't make dollars, it doesn't make sense. Everything in 2024 has to be for your company to

Chad (25:48.763)
Yes.

Brian Johnson (26:14.089)
do well financially and to do better. And so we're all into the qualitative evaluation of our companies, our departments. But don't forget about the qualitative numbers or qualitative data that you get. How are people feeling about the job they Do they feel valued? Do they feel stretched thin since you got rid of their two peers and fired them, but you didn't re -hire anybody. And so you're making everybody else work two or three times harder than they did before.

Chad (26:43.152)
Yeah.

Brian Johnson (26:43.773)
That is really what speaks to me as far as what Rodney said.

Chad (26:46.854)
Yeah.

Jasper Spanjaart (26:47.138)
I think you can even make the point like when you look at something like recruitment, we still put value on things like time to hire. And I go, it's great that you got someone into a job within three days, but was that the right person for the job? And how long did they stay? Exactly. Exactly. then six months later, they're all there. And it's just...

Chad (26:56.464)
Mm.

Chad (27:00.826)
Yeah. And how long did they stay? Right.

Brian Johnson (27:04.575)
Right. And it cost me 40 grand to get them on board and teaching what they need to know.

Jasper Spanjaart (27:14.254)
I think you're absolutely spot on in that sense where so much about it is about quantity. It's about the money. It's like, I'm sick of all these press releases where it's like this and this company has made so much money this year. And I'm like, yeah, but you're like a recruitment agency. Why should you be proud of that? Like, tell me that the person you've brought into a job has stayed there for 50 years has been happy. That's your proof of concept. Your proof of concept is not, we've made a billion dollars this year. Well, good for you. Right?

Brian Johnson (27:37.279)
Great point.

Jasper Spanjaart (27:43.904)
It's so stupid, man. I don't get it.

Chad (27:45.894)
No, is. It is 100%. And those should not be the metrics that they're actually pushing out. Because what it sounds like to me is that they're just churning people and they're just making money off of not being able for your organization to retain those people because you didn't get the right people in place in the first place. Right? So again, that's not a great long -term strategy. That's a great short -term burn and turn and burn strategy. Right? Yeah. The things that matter, you know,

Jasper Spanjaart (27:51.022)
Exactly.

Chad (28:12.496)
how quickly can they get into the place to become productive, right? To actually help you produce products and revenue and retain customers and open wallet share and the things that the C -suite care about, right? If we start having those discussions around DEI, then people give a shit, right? Because they don't care, like Brian said, doesn't make sense.

Brian Johnson (28:39.625)
Yeah, exactly right. know, DEI is not about holding hands and singing kumbaya or just being nicer, right? We tried that in the 90s or in the 80s. Just being nicer, right? We could get by. We don't have to really do anything. We just be nicer to everybody and everything would be good. Bullshit. That doesn't work. Right. It's like... Exactly. It's like trickle down economics. Bullshit from the beginning. But we had to go through and experience it because...

Chad (28:48.955)
Mm

Chad (28:54.731)
Yeah, the golden rule. It's the golden rule, Brian, is if everybody lives by the golden rule.

Exactly.

Brian Johnson (29:07.551)
People made that stick for some reason. yeah, it's I mean, you know, 2024, we can sell we can make a widget out of our apartment, sell it across the world to many different communities and all kind of different languages that we don't speak. So for a company, small or large, it's truly important to get those skill sets that can relate to what's going on on the ground there in that market. Right. What market share can we get?

We could the world is open to us if we are diverse in our skill set and our backgrounds. And it's just you're you're you're you're really shooting yourself in the foot as an organization as a company, regardless how big you are. If you don't diversify and make sure that they are equitable, because if you don't have equity in the people that you hire, they're going to be gone anyway. So you can't treat everybody the same. You got to treat them and give them what they need to succeed. That's what equitable is versus being

treating everybody equally and You have an opportunity as an organization as an entrepreneur do it or die

Chad (30:12.09)
There it is. That's how we're going to end it kids. That's how we're going to end it. Straight from Brian Johnson's lips. Do it or die. Well, listener, thanks for joining us for this film room session. Look for more amazing interviews and play -by -play breakdowns coming your way from your favorite podcast. That's right, Talent Chasing. Talk to you soon. See you guys.

Jasper Spanjaart (30:16.365)
Hahaha