Chasing Rodney Gilmore
Tune in to witness Rodney Gilmore, sports analyst by day and aspiring legal eagle by night. From his childhood streets of Oakland to the polished floors of ESPN, Rodney dishes on everything from racial dynamics to the heartbreaking rigors of choosing the right tie for broadcast. As they dive into topics like unconscious bias and diversity, prepare for a rollercoaster of "did they really just say that?" moments. Whether it's reminiscing about the good old days of juggling footballs and law books, or unraveling the enigma of ESPN’s cultural evolution from boys' club to big tent. Expect a mix of nostalgia, name-dropping, and nuanced takes on why college athletes should maybe, possibly, get a slice of the revenue pie. Don't miss out on this exhilarating exploration of sports, law, and the art of staying relevant in both.
Brian Johnson (00:18.71)
Hello everybody and welcome to Talent Chasing. Today our guest is Mr. Rodney Gilmore. Mr. Gilmore is well known, is a well known commodity to people who love watching college American football, because of Jasper I got to say American football. On ESPN for almost 30 years and to some folks who may have owned a company or bought a company, they know him as well. He's been a studio host, in game, analyst, and writer for almost 30 years at ESPN.
Jasper (00:32.836)
Heheheheh
Chad (00:33.635)
I'm sorry.
Brian Johnson (00:47.702)
At the same time, he's in practicing law in California with a firm that does a lot of mergers and acquisitions. Before doing all that, Rodney or Rod to his friends like me was a three sport athlete at Schuylin High School in Oakland, California. He would go on to Stanford University playing football and baseball. Upon graduation from there, he would go on to Bolt Law School at the University of California at Berkeley. So a lot, a lot to cover here today with Mr. Gilmore.
Jasper (00:58.82)
you
Brian Johnson (01:17.462)
So with that, welcome Rodney to Talent Chasing.
Gilmore Rodney (01:21.132)
Thanks for having me and appreciate the the introduction make you make it sound like actually did something over the year. He's man Appreciate that
Brian Johnson (01:27.126)
Yeah, yeah. We like to pump our guests up. Yeah, we like to pump everybody up. Yeah, well, Chad, Jasper and myself, we've been researching a lot. But because you and I are tight, I get to ask the first question. So I'll go ahead and do that. But.
Jasper (01:27.492)
I think you did though.
Gilmore Rodney (01:42.283)
Well, for folks who don't know, I mean, we go way, way back because of high school. And I mean, people don't realize this too, but you were one of Stanford's greatest two -sport athletes ever. No, but I mean, it's true. I mean, look, I know and am friends with two guys that played quarterback.
Jasper (01:57.86)
Don't pump him up too much now, I mean...
Brian Johnson (02:00.758)
No, no, let him go on. Let him talk. Let him talk. He's making a good point.
Chad (02:02.628)
Hahaha!
Gilmore Rodney (02:10.635)
and we're outstanding baseball players. That's Brian Johnson and John Elway, you know. Yeah.
Brian Johnson (02:15.126)
Hey, that's pretty good class there.
Chad (02:15.171)
Dang!
Jasper (02:16.868)
Where did it go wrong, Brian?
Brian Johnson (02:19.062)
My Hall of Fame call is coming soon. It's coming soon. I'll get there. Yeah. But with your story, Rod, what I really enjoy the most is that it seems like your parents popped up from time to time. So I'd like to, if we could start off, kind of start off from the beginning. If you wouldn't mind, tell us the story of your parents and the impact that they had on you.
Gilmore Rodney (02:23.467)
Yeah.
Jasper (02:23.556)
Alright, yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (02:45.354)
Wow, you know, geez, man, you start me off with really the emotional tough question to respond to because, you know, my folks, you know, have been just everything. My dad passed 17 years ago from cancer. And, you know, I grew up in a family with six kids. I have five siblings.
Brian Johnson (02:49.782)
Yeah, we -we -this isn't your everyday podcast here.
Brian Johnson (03:01.366)
I know, that's what I want to hear.
Gilmore Rodney (03:14.217)
My folks made the great migration from the South, from Oklahoma and Texas to Oakland in the 50s and had two sets of kids, three each. So my older brothers are 10, eight and six years older than I am. And then there was a gap of five years. And then I was born in between two sisters. And so, bless.
bless my father's heart, he kept wondering, look dude, you gotta quit playing with these dolls with your sisters all the time. We're gonna get your brothers out here and you need to play some ball, come on, we gotta get you out of the house. Because by then, my brothers were kinda out of the house, so it was pretty wild. But my dad believed in community service. And so he actually was a city councilman in Oakland for a long, long time, was active in the civil rights movement.
Brian Johnson (03:46.646)
Yeah.
Jasper (03:47.364)
Hahaha!
Gilmore Rodney (04:11.144)
and worked with the NAACP. So as a consequence, our entire family did. And so we kind of took the lead from him as to, you got to be involved, you got to be active, and you got to fight for rights. And my mom raised six kids. And we're an Oakland family, pretty much born and raised and spent almost our entire lives there. My family, my mom is still alive, she's 94.
and has all of her faculties and talked to her pretty much every day and she can still grill you over everything. So, no, we took the keys away a couple years ago. Yeah, but, yeah. But, you know, so the thing that I really admire about my folks is that, you know, you have a set of three kids now they're in their,
Brian Johnson (04:41.462)
Wow, right on.
Jasper (04:47.876)
Hmm.
Brian Johnson (04:49.672)
Yeah, yeah. She driving still?
Brian Johnson (04:55.862)
Okay, okay.
Jasper (04:56.74)
No, no, no, no, no, no,
Chad (04:58.275)
Brian's getting there.
Brian Johnson (04:59.958)
Hahaha!
Gilmore Rodney (05:11.078)
teens, early 20s, and then you got a younger set. And they were still out there every event, every game, you know, really focused on, you know, raising the last three and being as, you know, involved in their lives as they were with the first three. And I'm sort of like, if it had been me after the first three, I'd be like, y 'all on your own. You know, your, your brothers can go and see, but we, you know, we've done that thing. Exactly.
Jasper (05:20.324)
Cheers.
Brian Johnson (05:34.006)
Yeah. Right. That's why you have older kids so they can babysit and be there for all the things you don't want to go to. That's right. That's right.
Chad (05:38.979)
Yes.
Jasper (05:39.332)
I'm sorry.
Gilmore Rodney (05:40.709)
Exactly. Yeah. But no, so we, uh, they came to our events and, you know, we got dragged to initially, you know, to all the political events in the city of Oakland, whatever was going on. And, you know, uh, Sundays with my mom, it was, you know, it was church all day, you know, uh, unless I had a baseball game, I was excused to be a part of that, you know? Um, so our, my folks have been, you know, they were huge in my life, you know,
my dad obviously until he passed. And, you know, we just were a close knit family, have been. It's been a little bit different since, you know, I'm a little bit further away. I'm about 20 miles away from my brothers and sisters, but I see them weekly on a regular basis. But yeah, so Brian, you start me off taking me way back to what it was like, you know, growing up in that household and, you know, having, you know, three older brothers who helped me figure out.
Jasper (06:25.956)
Yeah.
Brian Johnson (06:32.086)
Yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (06:39.748)
you know, how to play sports and, you know, I was always playing up, you know, playing with folks who were far too old for me and whatnot. So by the time I got involved in organized sports, I felt, you know, really confident and I knew what I was doing and, and all that. So that, that's the history of my folks and I can't say enough about them. And I think one of the things I'm most proud of is that, and Brian, you know, this area over on 66.
Brian Johnson (06:44.47)
Yeah, sorry.
Jasper (06:47.588)
Hehehe.
Gilmore Rodney (07:08.1)
Avenue and what was East 14th Street now International Boulevard is where Havenscourt Junior High is and There was a field there that used to be known as Greenman Field Yeah That that's been renamed
Brian Johnson (07:19.222)
Greenman Field, knew it well. Right down the street, a stone's throw from the Oakland Coliseum for anybody that's curious.
Gilmore Rodney (07:24.803)
Exactly, exactly. So it's been renamed in my father's honor as Carter Gilmore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the impact that, you know, he had, and he was completely into youth sports, you know, with his kids being involved. And so we were just thrilled and honored and pleased that, you know, that field was renamed in his honor, you know, after he passed. Yeah.
Jasper (07:25.796)
Mmm.
Chad (07:26.115)
Ah!
Jasper (07:28.228)
Thank you.
Brian Johnson (07:29.91)
Oh really? Oh right on!
Chad (07:30.627)
Wow!
Brian Johnson (07:48.278)
Oh, I love that. Love that.
Chad (07:48.387)
Wow, that's amazing. That's amazing. So talk a little bit about, you talked about your family were activists, you know, activism. How did that shape you growing up?
Gilmore Rodney (07:55.746)
Yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (08:00.738)
Well, it's hard not to be involved and notice when basically it's the topic all the time. I mean, as I said, my father was involved in local politics and when we're at home and the family's around and you're playing Midwest, you're playing spades, the conversation, and particularly, this is the late 60s, early 70s.
Jasper (08:23.876)
Mm.
Gilmore Rodney (08:28.098)
It all turns around what is happening in civil rights. You know, what can the NAACP do? And for me, I grew up around that. And so I was very much aware and concerned about what was going on around me. And then I had the unique opportunity and burden in some respects of being the only kid in my family who did not go to the local.
predominantly black middle school. I was bused to a predominantly white school up in the Elmwood Hills at Monterra Junior High. And all this was, yeah, this is all going on while everything is happening with civil rights too. So I was very in tune to what was going on, probably, you know, much more aware than I needed to be, you know, at that age.
Chad (09:00.771)
Mm -hmm.
Jasper (09:04.772)
Okay.
Brian Johnson (09:07.638)
Ah, that's where I want to, yep.
Chad (09:15.971)
Huh?
Gilmore Rodney (09:24.96)
And the reason I wound up at Montero was because the Skyline baseball coaches had seen me playing as an 11 year old, 12 year old, and decided that, you know, we need to get him involved in the system to get him up the Skyline. And my dad thought it was the greatest idea, you know, to get me out of the neighborhood and get me up there. And so that was...
Jasper (09:47.044)
You
Gilmore Rodney (09:53.279)
the first time I noticed that baseball had an impact on my life and really sort of changed my journey a bit. So I was one of the kids being bussed from East Oakland up to the hills, predominantly white areas. And it sort of started to create my interaction with the larger culture and the issues that were coming up. I mean, for me, it...
it sort of started to create the kinds of interactions with people and with lease, which I had heard about. For example, my first real encounter where I was by myself was visiting a friend up in the Oakland Hills and afterwards making my way to a bus stop to take the bus back down. And I get stopped by a cop. I'm like 13 years old.
Chad (10:26.851)
Mm -hmm.
Jasper (10:35.94)
Mm.
Chad (10:48.995)
Wow.
Gilmore Rodney (10:49.502)
I get pulled over by cops asking me, why are you here? What are you doing over here and whatnot? And I am just kind of freaking out and I'm going, okay, I've heard all the stories about police encounters, you know, and whatnot, what's gonna happen here? How am I gonna get out of this? And you know, so, you know, it was fine. I told my story, they made sure I took a bus and got out of there, but...
you know, when you're 13 years old, that stuff kind of shapes you, you know, it impacts you. So I certainly, yeah, I certainly had my antenna up, but yeah, that was the beginning of my own interaction with what was going on in the broader culture and how I was viewed outside of my home, outside of my neighborhood.
Chad (11:18.723)
Yeah. Yeah. What, what?
Jasper (11:19.908)
Absolutely.
Chad (11:33.763)
Yeah. Well, the, I mean, the Black Panthers were very active in that area in that time. So, you know, what was your experience? Your dad was an activist. Did he have experience? Um, I mean, that was, I mean, again, that was a very turbulent time.
Gilmore Rodney (11:50.173)
Yeah, I would say my father was certainly connected and communicated with them and put on events with them because a lot of what people didn't understand about the Black Panthers is that there was a heavy focus on serving and helping the community. So there were a lot of Saturdays and Sundays of, hey, organizing to feed the needy, breakfast provided, that sort of thing. And my parents were involved with that.
Jasper (11:55.843)
Mm.
Gilmore Rodney (12:19.484)
My older brothers, you know, they were, you know, late teens, early twenties, and they weren't in the Black Panthers, but they were attending all the events. I mean, they were, as my mother used to say, they're getting really militant, you know? And so there was always this discussion about, you know, pushing. Well, I mean, it's the old adage. It was Martin Luther King's approach, you know, early on to nonviolence.
Jasper (12:34.372)
Heheheheh
Brian Johnson (12:34.614)
Yeah, yeah.
Chad (12:45.475)
Mm -hmm.
Gilmore Rodney (12:47.58)
Malcolm X, hey, by any means necessary. And my older brothers were leaning towards any means necessary. And so I was watching all this play out. So heck, by the time I got to high school and college and there was all the reading and discussions about Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, I'm like, I've been hearing this for 15 years. I'm on top of all this.
Brian Johnson (13:13.206)
Yeah, yeah.
Jasper (13:14.435)
Where did you lean towards? Because you describe your brothers as leaning one way. And I mean, it could be for me, I've read a lot about this time and age, even though I'm on the other side of the world, and it's sort of a strange world to me. But did you feel a sense to be an activist too? Or did you, how did you cope with all that, I guess?
Gilmore Rodney (13:35.163)
No, I, maybe it's because, you know, you know, some kids gravitate towards, hey, I'm going to do exactly what my dad did and, you know, others gravitate. No, I'm not going to. For me, I, I felt like, and maybe a certain part of it was a kind of a little bit of pressure I felt because I certainly had my parents, you know, say to me, hey, you're going to, we're going to make sure you get opportunities that, you know, we didn't get or that your older brothers didn't get.
and this path of getting you to Monterra and then on to Skyline should put you in a better position and that sort of thing. I would say I certainly wasn't militant. I was certainly aware and I had a little chip on my shoulder, doubt. And I'll give you an example. So in middle school and being bused to Monterra,
Jasper (14:23.78)
Hmm?
Gilmore Rodney (14:33.497)
There was a huge big area outside of Montero where the buses would gather after school. And the kids who had the local bus would jump on their buses. And then the kids who were heading back down the hill to East Oakland and other parts jumped on the two buses for there. And then there were the kids who lived right around the school.
they weren't getting on the buses, they were walking or getting on their bikes. And there were times when all the black kids would get on these two buses and you'd see the white kids, you know, looking at you, pointing at you, you know, laughing and whatnot. And it just made you angry, you know, this really made you angry, you know? And so I certainly felt like, all right, well, this is going to change one day, you know, and.
Chad (15:03.875)
Mm -hmm.
Jasper (15:15.14)
Hmm.
Jasper (15:19.716)
I can understand, yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (15:30.456)
I'm gonna change this one day. I'm gonna live up here one day, that sort of thing. But yeah, so there were things like that that fuel you, that you certainly feel and continue with. And to be honest with you, for me, sports was kind of the safe haven. It was the place where I didn't have any insecurities. I didn't care about...
Jasper (15:52.324)
Okay.
Gilmore Rodney (15:59.287)
black, white, any other issues. I didn't worry about civil rights. I knew I was good. I knew I could play, you know, and contrast that with, you know, walking down the hallways, you know, whether it was in, you know, junior high, middle school or high school, feeling a little bit insecure. Am I accepted? Do people want me around? That sort of thing. I had no thoughts or worries about that when it came to sports. It didn't matter. So.
Jasper (16:24.484)
Hmm.
Gilmore Rodney (16:26.39)
That was the way I dealt with things. I felt like athletics would be my ticket out. And for me, I didn't think that necessarily meant playing professionally, but I felt that it would be my ticket to getting to college and having it paid for because there was no way in the world my family was going to be able to pay for college. So I was focused on that and I was focused in...
Jasper (16:36.164)
Okay.
Chad (16:41.859)
Mm -hmm.
Jasper (16:51.203)
Hmm.
Gilmore Rodney (16:55.893)
Don't get in trouble, stay out of trouble, let your game speak and you gotta be a good student and that sort of thing. That was my thinking. And so I'm not sure that my folks would have let me get too actively involved in things once I got to high school because I think they saw a different path for me.
Jasper (16:57.892)
Heheheheh
Jasper (17:15.524)
Hmm.
Brian Johnson (17:19.414)
I and thank you for bringing up the value of the Black Panther Party. I mean, all the pictures you look at historically, it's all with guys walking around with guns. And it's such a negative portrayal of the Black Panther Party. Growing up in Oakland, as I did, you can't help but learn about the history of the Black Panther Party because it started there and went all the way across the country in like you're talking about. It was in defense of the Black community. It was defend.
Jasper (17:26.34)
Thank you.
Gilmore Rodney (17:43.732)
That's right.
Brian Johnson (17:45.878)
Not just the honor but just literally physically defending people and feeding people and so forth You went to Montero junior high school and skyline high school Which is where I went and I talked on the last show when I did my interview I talked about the hills versus the flatlands right and and the terminology we use there So first real quick what high school were you to go to that was near your house?
Gilmore Rodney (17:58.165)
you
Gilmore Rodney (18:03.86)
Right.
Gilmore Rodney (18:13.716)
I would have gone to Fremont High School, which is where my older brothers went. And my older brothers were athletic, basketball and baseball players. My second oldest brother, Donnie, and you may remember this Brian, you know, back in the day they used to have tournament of champions at the Oakland Arena, the TOC. And that's right.
Brian Johnson (18:16.054)
Three months, okay.
Brian Johnson (18:35.254)
Yeah, TOC. Yeah, it was played where the Golden State Warriors used to play. It was Oracle Arena and then Oakland County Coliseum was what it was called. But when you go, when you walk around the tunnels below, it's the strongest weed smell you've ever smelled in your life. You can get high just walking from one seat to another down below. But anyway, I digress. Keep going.
Gilmore Rodney (18:50.356)
Yeah.
Jasper (18:50.66)
Have you been to Amsterdam, Brian?
Gilmore Rodney (18:57.171)
Yeah. Yeah, no, no. And even when the Warriors were playing there before they left, I mean, you know, you go to the game, you go to concession stands, you're like, okay, that's a contact high. You know?
Jasper (18:58.916)
You
Brian Johnson (19:07.734)
Right, that's right, that's right, that's right, that's right.
Jasper (19:07.78)
Hahaha
Gilmore Rodney (19:10.835)
But yeah, but so my brother Donnie, you know, was an excellent high school basketball player and he led Fremont to the TOC and was an all tournament player, ended up playing college basketball at the College of Idaho up there. And, you know.
Brian Johnson (19:21.75)
Oh yeah.
Brian Johnson (19:30.07)
Was Theodos Brown there during your days? When did Theodos Brown, when did he come in? Theodos played in the NFL for a long time with the Chiefs, running back with the Chiefs for a long time and died young as it were from a heart attack. Well, go ahead, Brad.
Gilmore Rodney (19:33.042)
I'm sorry?
Fiotis Brown was a couple years ahead of me.
Gilmore Rodney (19:41.969)
Yeah.
Right. Yeah, Theotis was, uh, had just graduated when I got to Skyline. Um, and he had just started at UCLA, uh, as a running back playing under Dick Vermille. And as you said, had, had a really, really, uh, nice, uh, pro career after just an outstanding college career. And, you know, he was the guy, you know, at Skyline that we all looked up to. It's like, Oh, Theotis Brown was, he was it, you know? Um, but yeah, so.
Brian Johnson (20:11.83)
You're worse.
Gilmore Rodney (20:15.249)
We had sort of the same thing. You were aware of the hills versus the flatlands. My brothers had gone to Fremont High and that's where I would have gone to had I not been bussed up to Skyline. And Fremont, yeah, and Fremont, you know, predominantly black school. Today it's more black Hispanic than it was back in the day when I was there. But always turned out,
Brian Johnson (20:28.502)
Yeah, so much. Go ahead.
Gilmore Rodney (20:45.105)
great teams and the like. And if I had gone there, and you may remember him, Brian, I would have played for Leo Alamano, who was the great baseball coach, great basketball coach, was really a fixture in high school athletics in the Bay Area for decades.
Brian Johnson (21:03.19)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Marku was Marku's junior was there when I was at Fremont High when I was there as both the baseball and the basketball coach. But I know we got a lot of things to get to. But last thing with this racial piece with the Malcolm X piece versus the Martin Luther King piece, you talked about how your brothers kind of lean more Milton, you lead a little more towards MLK. What about when Malcolm X took his trip abroad and came back with a different perspective?
Gilmore Rodney (21:10.865)
Mm -hmm.
Brian Johnson (21:32.342)
and much more leaning towards the peaceful peace. Was there, I don't know how the times changed. Were you still, was that still with you and your brothers were living together or was that past that?
Gilmore Rodney (21:41.937)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, the other thing that happened in that time, too, was that, you know, MLK started moving a little bit more towards, you know, this nonviolent thing ain't working. And, you know, maybe we need to step it up and be a little bit more aggressive, a little bit more violent. And I would say for me, I was pretty self -focused in high school. And I was like, you know, I'm aware of everything, but I don't want to be involved. As I got older,
Chad (21:51.875)
Uh huh.
Jasper (21:54.34)
Mm.
Gilmore Rodney (22:11.153)
and I got into in college and then law school and thereafter, I became much more active about rights and opportunities and really, I'd say pushing narratives. And to be honest with you, that carries forward to today with ESPN because...
I think we had a national reckoning back in 2020, George Floyd was murdered. ESPN, along with a lot of other companies, started really listening and looking at what can we do. Fortunately, I've been involved with a few other folks. I guess from the ESPN perspective, you might say, well, we got some activists here who are really holding our feet to the fire on DEI.
Chad (22:42.787)
Mm -hmm.
Gilmore Rodney (23:07.921)
and opportunities and the like. And so I'd like to think that that is maybe the most important work that I've done at ESPN in my almost 30 years there is try to help educate and open eyes and push opportunities and not let ESPN continue or slip back into being an old boys club or so.
Chad (23:10.595)
Mm -hmm.
Jasper (23:16.804)
Hmm.
Jasper (23:37.028)
Hmm.
Gilmore Rodney (23:37.905)
And I've had, I mean, you'd be amazed at the conversations with executives who just go, wow, I just didn't know that, we didn't see that. And sometimes it's just, it's the way things are presented on air. And we say to them, look, if someone had been sitting at the table when you guys were discussing this, this never would have hit air.
Jasper (23:54.756)
Yeah, absolutely.
Brian Johnson (24:04.886)
Yes sir. Yes sir.
Chad (24:04.931)
Mm -hmm.
Gilmore Rodney (24:05.809)
But if you don't have enough diversity sitting around these tables, or if you don't have enough producers, enough coordinating producers who are sensitive to these issues, you're going to get these problems. We had one come up, gosh, there was, I'm forgetting who the basketball player was, but there was a picture put on ESPN Digital showing a black basketball player.
Jasper (24:12.708)
Yep.
Chad (24:16.707)
Oh yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (24:35.601)
And there were a million pictures that could have been chosen. And it was one that depicted him in a mugshot. And it wasn't an actual mugshot, mind you. He had not been arrested or anything, but it was just that. And so we immediately started firing off emails and we get on a conference call. We're like, well, why? Why does this happen? So we just...
Chad (24:39.363)
Mm -hmm.
Jasper (24:43.748)
Mmm.
Jasper (24:50.212)
No, no, no, no, right.
Gilmore Rodney (25:00.881)
We don't think it's anything out of character. So no, no, no, no, but you're painting a picture, you're painting an image. And who's in the room? Who made this decision? Then you see, yeah.
Jasper (25:10.468)
Yep. I know who made this decision, yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (25:14.801)
Yeah, yeah, you know, and we're like, look, we're not trying to run the company. We're just asking you to, you know, have some input, you know, be aware. So anyway.
Chad (25:16.803)
Mm -hmm, yeah.
Brian Johnson (25:26.294)
And it's great that you bring that up because it doesn't always have to be a confrontation. It doesn't always have to be a fight. It can just be because, you know, honestly, in this day and age, 2024, if you're still ignorant about those kind of things, you don't want to know about the other voices in the room. So so I love that your voice and so many other voices are so important with that. But yeah, I appreciate you sharing that.
Gilmore Rodney (25:30.289)
Right. Right.
Chad (25:39.875)
Right. Yeah.
Chad (25:48.035)
It's hard to believe unconscious bias exists, right? In this day and age, it really, when somebody says that to me, it's like, how? I mean, what corner have you been in for the last 40 years? At least, at least.
Jasper (26:00.644)
Yeah, surely by now it's conscious.
Gilmore Rodney (26:03.753)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And some people really just are, you know, they're oblivious. I mean, they have their two or three people that they work with, they talk to every day, and they don't have a diverse opinion. And yeah, it's a real bubble and it just doesn't cross their mind. But so many problems could be avoided and so much more education is out there if you just include...
Chad (26:12.707)
Mm.
Chad (26:18.851)
Right. It's a bubble.
Gilmore Rodney (26:32.969)
a little bit of diversity into the process, that's all. And you're right, Brian, it doesn't have to be confrontational, it doesn't have to be a fight, it simply has to be, this is how you get better.
Chad (26:45.795)
Yeah, yeah. Well, going off of this is how you get better. I'm going to switch a little bit. You talked about your brothers, right? And you were always playing with guys who were bigger than you, stronger than you, faster than you. But you also played with the Ricky Henderson's of the world, right? So, so how did, how did playing a, you know, with, with those guys, you know, drop as many names as you want rod. Uh, how did play playing with those guys take you to be a two.
Gilmore Rodney (26:53.065)
Mm -hmm.
Gilmore Rodney (27:01.449)
Oh yeah. Yeah.
Jasper (27:10.276)
Hahaha!
Chad (27:14.723)
Sport Guide Stanford.
Gilmore Rodney (27:17.833)
Look, we had some players, man. And at the time when you are going through it, you just think, yeah, you know, everybody's kind of good. Yeah. But so I was on a team. Yeah. So I played with or against Ricky Henderson, Gary Pettis, Lloyd Mosby.
Jasper (27:30.084)
hahaha
Brian Johnson (27:32.598)
Because Ricky played football too during those days, right?
Brian Johnson (27:46.07)
Yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (27:47.785)
And so we played against each other in high school and we tried to play with each other in the summers. And, uh, I remember telling this story. Actually, I told this story. So, you know, there's, there's an Oakland Babe Ruth Hall of Fame and I was, uh, inducted into it the same time with Ricky and with Gary Pettis. And, and so I tell this story about how we were all playing on this summer league team.
Chad (27:50.851)
Mm -hmm.
Jasper (28:11.172)
Okay.
Gilmore Rodney (28:17.321)
and the coach, Hank Thomason, Brian, you probably remember. Yeah, Hank looks up and down the roster and everybody says, there's like, there's probably one guy who's gonna make it to the majors on here. He says, you guys all have an opportunity to play in college and play in the minors, you know, but maybe one of you will make it. So you gotta really, really, really work at this. And I'm looking around, I look over, I see Gary, I look at Ricky, I'm looking at Laura and I'm like, it's me.
Brian Johnson (28:22.006)
Yeah, Hank, my man.
Gilmore Rodney (28:47.465)
I am that guy. I am the one. I am the one. Absolutely. I'm like, ah, it is me. And, you know, I mean, it's amazing what confidence will do for you. I mean, so playing football and baseball in high school, I was 100 % certain.
Brian Johnson (28:47.574)
Hahaha!
Brian Johnson (28:51.958)
That's right. That's right.
Jasper (28:51.972)
So the self -belief was there then?
Brian Johnson (28:55.798)
You
Brian Johnson (29:00.246)
Hahaha!
Jasper (29:00.42)
you
Chad (29:00.611)
Yeah, that is awesome.
Gilmore Rodney (29:17.193)
that A, I would land a scholarship to play football. No idea. I never saw myself as undersized or whatever. It just never crossed my mind. I'm just sort of like, of course, you know, I'm pretty good. Yeah, I'll learn one. And the second thing was that I could play professional baseball. And, you know, my high school baseball coach was constantly after Joe Panella.
Chad (29:23.907)
Mm -hmm.
Jasper (29:30.02)
Hmm.
Gilmore Rodney (29:46.665)
was constantly after me. It's like, you know, you need to back off the football thing and just really focus on baseball and idiot me. I'm like, no, no, no, I, I can get a scholarship over there, you know? And so I was really confident about it. Broke my leg my senior year of high school playing football, catching a touchdown pass, you know, was that was an ugly hit. Didn't have to hit me. He was already beaten, but he did whatever. So, uh,
Brian Johnson (29:47.798)
Yeah, yeah.
Brian Johnson (29:55.03)
Yeah.
Jasper (29:55.94)
Nah.
Jasper (30:05.732)
Aww.
Jasper (30:14.724)
Yeah
Brian Johnson (30:15.798)
We can take him out. Just let us know where he's at. We'll get him.
Gilmore Rodney (30:17.993)
Yeah, I wish I'd figured it out. Yeah. So that wiped out my senior year of baseball. And as a consequence, I didn't get drafted, but I was already lined up to go to Stanford and play football and baseball. So I'm like, well, no big deal. But well, in high school, I played shortstop. At Stanford, I was moved to the outfield.
Brian Johnson (30:21.91)
Yeah.
Jasper (30:22.788)
It's not that type of podcast, no.
Brian Johnson (30:41.494)
What position and base ball did you play?
Gilmore Rodney (30:48.585)
And so, you know, that was sort of my path. And it's crazy how things work out because, you know, you mentioned my legal background. So my whole focus by the time, you know, I got to college was, all right, I want to go to law school if the sports thing doesn't work out. And then ultimately, I'd like to be a lawyer for a team or league and.
Jasper (31:08.516)
Okay.
Gilmore Rodney (31:15.529)
That's my dream. That's what I really want to do. And that never worked out. I mean, it's so hard, one, to get those opportunities, and two, there's a built -in bias for those who are in the inner circle. I'll give you an example. So my first job out of law school was with a firm in LA, Monat.
Jasper (31:27.94)
Mmm.
Chad (31:28.099)
Yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (31:44.905)
Phelps, which was a highly respected and active political and sports entertainment firm. And so Arne Tellum was a lawyer there. And Alan Rothenberg, who was also a lawyer there, who was a GM for the Clippers at the time, and then would also go on to run the Olympics.
in LA. And so I went there and my thinking was I'll get all the experience I need and I can work my way into a league or a team. And Allen and Arms sat me down and they're like, look, this is how we got in. A friend of ours bought the Clippers.
Brian Johnson (32:33.302)
hahahahah
Jasper (32:33.924)
Well, that's an end.
Gilmore Rodney (32:34.441)
I'm like wait what? Hi, yeah friend of ours bought the Clippers we became their lawyers and you know He ended up making a bunch of money and he bought the Clippers and he said I trust you guys you're the lawyers for my team and So they said look you got a really work on being the best lawyer you can be You know grind on that and then hope an opportunity comes along you can reach out whatnot, but unless you know
you're with a group or you've got a client who buys the team or something, it's going to be really difficult, but you've got to be prepared when it comes along. I'm like, great, okay, all right, I'll do that. And a door never opened. Whether I got a friend to introduce me or to get an interview, door never opened. The closest I came was in the early mid 90s.
The Oakland A's were looking for a new general counsel and the law firm that represented them was in San Francisco and I had been working with them on deals from my firm. And so we got to have a mutual respect and whatnot. And so the lawyers there recommended me to the A's. And so I go through the process and, you know, so we're right down to the last couple of people.
And I'm...
Brian Johnson (34:00.246)
Who is the ownership at that point? The Haas family or the, was it, wasn't the Haas family, they were already gone, I think.
Gilmore Rodney (34:07.529)
No, no, it wasn't the Haas family. It was...
Brian Johnson (34:13.526)
Doesn't matter. Sorry. I messed up your flow. My bad.
Gilmore Rodney (34:14.409)
Yeah, can't think of them right now. Yeah, no. But anyway, so we're down to the last couple and the lawyer who recommended me pulled me aside. He said, look, I just heard that you're about to make partner in your firm. And I just, full disclosure, that's a really big opportunity and you need to know that what we're doing with the AIDS is we're bringing general counsel in. And so that would be you.
And the plan is to sell the team. And in order to sell the team, we're going to start doing layoffs. You're going to oversee cutting people. And then, right. And then after that is done, the team will be sold. And whether there's a future depends on what the new ownership says. And I went, oh, man.
Brian Johnson (34:58.998)
You're gonna oversee a blood bath.
Chad (34:59.171)
Yeah. Yeah. No, thanks.
Jasper (35:11.108)
Right.
Brian Johnson (35:11.702)
Wow. Which was not a utopia for a lawyer, I'm sure.
Gilmore Rodney (35:17.673)
No, like seriously? And I'm thinking, I'm thinking, all right, maybe we can still make this work. Is this like a five year plan or something? Like, no, we're hoping to have this done in a year, 18 months tops. And I'm like, I can't do that. I can't pass up being a partner in my law firm to do a year deal where I'm in charge of a blood bath and then I gotta go find another job. And so.
Chad (35:18.627)
Oh, hell no. Yeah.
Brian Johnson (35:25.654)
hahahaha
Jasper (35:25.764)
Hehehehehe
Chad (35:32.035)
Wow.
Jasper (35:32.676)
Wow.
Brian Johnson (35:44.854)
I'm glad they told you the truth and we're looking out for you.
Jasper (35:44.932)
No, it's -
Chad (35:47.555)
Yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (35:48.425)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, the guy again who recommended, and we're still friends to this day, guy recommended we'd worked together, you know, and it's not often the case that you're the lawyer on the other side of a deal and you get along great with each other and you remain friends and, you know, you refer business to each other. That doesn't happen all the time. But yeah, so he was straight up with me at the 11th hour. I'm like, all right, I get it. Yeah, okay.
Jasper (35:49.124)
Well, that's true, yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (36:17.737)
I guess I'm out. So that was the closest I ever came. But I couldn't get interviews with Major League Baseball, with the NFL. Bill Walsh tried his hardest to get me in the door with the 49ers. But by then, oh yeah, Ray was actually my agent when I came out of Stanford.
Jasper (36:27.492)
Hmm.
Brian Johnson (36:33.398)
Did you come across Ray Anderson at all? Was he a friend?
Brian Johnson (36:40.502)
Yeah. Yeah, so Ray Anderson was with Harold Reynolds. They both had an agency. Harold Reynolds, who was no Harold Reynolds is a baseball player. His brother, me and Ray Anderson ran an agency when I was playing. They were the only black agents anywhere. And so Ray was doing football stuff. Larry, that's what Larry Reynolds did the baseball. Larry also played baseball in football at Stanford.
Gilmore Rodney (36:59.721)
Right. Right.
Jasper (37:00.548)
Okay.
Gilmore Rodney (37:04.041)
Larry, Larry was doing baseball. Yeah.
That's right. Yeah.
Brian Johnson (37:09.014)
But Larry is still an agent to this day. Has a lot of really good players. Most of them black, which is awesome. Ray Anderson went on to be the president of Arizona State University. Most recently, he also was a big NFL executive for a long time too. So, so the Ray Anderson helped you at all or was he a friend or colleague during that time?
Gilmore Rodney (37:23.753)
Yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (37:28.393)
He was a confidant and so Ray was a football baseball player at Stanford. And I met him when I was coming out as a senior, he became my agent. And then he moved on to the Atlanta Falcons at one point. And so while I was trying to get into a league or a team or so, he was certainly my advisor, confidant, we talked a lot.
He let me know about opportunities and whatnot, but he wasn't in the position to hire someone or so. And then when he moved to the league, sort of the same thing. And then, excuse me, he moved from the NFL to Arizona State, as you mentioned. And Larry, Larry was my big brother at Stanford. Yeah, yeah, because when I came in, he was a junior.
Brian Johnson (38:22.23)
Mm, really? Okay.
Gilmore Rodney (38:27.672)
and he was playing baseball and football. And so he just, he said, I got you young buck, you're my guy. I'm going to take care of you. Cause you know, I was, you know, playing baseball. We were both, you know, outfielders and we were both defensive backs. So, so he, he, uh, he was my big brother and took good care of me for the time he was there.
Jasper (38:35.204)
Heheheheh
Brian Johnson (38:35.51)
Nice.
Brian Johnson (38:42.134)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brian Johnson (38:48.214)
Yeah, Larry is great. I got to know Harold better when I was playing as I played against Harold when he was with the Mariners and now he's been at ESPN forever. I'm sure you run into Harold all the time. But Larry has been awesome. My son playing baseball in college and he helped guide me a lot in kind of being a first time dad with the baseball kids. So yeah, I really appreciate them. Let's transition over to ESPN. You've been there almost 30 years.
Jasper (38:48.42)
Third.
Gilmore Rodney (38:53.335)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (39:16.438)
Yeah.
Brian Johnson (39:17.622)
When you first started, there wasn't a whole lot of former players or former athletes period, much less, I doubt the diversity is really good during those days. A whole lot of guys going into that and being the color guys or the play by play guys. Can you describe at least as we begin, how has ESPN changed from when you started to today?
Jasper (39:27.396)
Hmm.
Brian Johnson (39:42.774)
as a culture.
Gilmore Rodney (39:45.91)
Well, I don't think I'm speaking out of school here because, you know, there have been books written about ESPN and clearly from its early days in the early 80s to the mid 90s, early 90s, it was seen pretty much as kind of a boys club or a fraternity, you know, that sort of thing. You know, I guess the initial book was, you know, these guys have all the fun or something like that.
Chad (40:07.427)
Mm -hmm.
Jasper (40:13.764)
Hmm.
Gilmore Rodney (40:15.189)
And yeah, it was it was that kind of environment. I showed up in in 96. And that path, that plan was not anything I had planned. I was simply trying to stay involved with sports and be around it because, you know, I couldn't get in the door as a lawyer and, you know, a friend who was doing local TV.
you know, asked me to help him out with a local radio show he had, you know, sports and law issues would come up and I did that. And finally he had an opportunity to do some local games and baseball, Santa Clara, St. Mary's, that sort of thing. And he said, come on, do it with me. It'll be fun. Do the weekend or whatnot. I was like, what the heck? So I did that for a year or so. And then sports, sports channel came to the Bay Area.
Jasper (40:57.316)
Mm.
Gilmore Rodney (41:14.163)
They're long gone now, but they came to the Bay Area and one of the things that they did was they started doing delayed broadcasts of the local college teams, Stanford, Cal, San Jose State. And the deal was the university could have approval over who was in the booth. And one of the things was they wanted, each school wanted one of their guys.
Brian Johnson (41:14.614)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (41:39.699)
And sports channel said fine, but he's got to have experience. We're not putting a newbie in there. And so when he came to Stanford, the guy, Ted Leland was the AD, he said, like, oh, we've got some guy. He's been doing local stuff for a couple of years. Here's Rod. That's like, oh, OK. So that was.
Jasper (41:44.58)
Hmm.
Chad (41:58.019)
So.
Brian Johnson (41:59.638)
Did you get to do the Cal stuff too, being going to law school there? Or that didn't count? That didn't count? You can't cross over it. For you two who don't know it, you can't be both Cal and Stanford. It's either one or the other. So that's why I asked that question. Right, right.
Gilmore Rodney (42:02.835)
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
Jasper (42:04.132)
Okay.
Jasper (42:12.036)
Yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (42:14.994)
The hatred is real. But let me, I'm jumping ahead, but let me share one thing with you. For people who ask me that question, what was your loyalty? You know, Stanford or Cal, whatever. First, I remind them that the hatred is real. But the second thing is, if you've done undergrad work and you've done grad work, you know grad school work is no fun. There's not a whole lot of fun memories. And law school for three years, all they do is just grind you.
Chad (42:17.027)
Ha!
Brian Johnson (42:24.854)
Hahaha!
Gilmore Rodney (42:44.113)
You get more work than you can possibly do. You read more than you possibly can. And in my case, the law school was pretty much across the street from the Cal football stadium. And that was the stadium where I played my last college game, which was also the side of one of the most hilarious, crazy endings to a football game in the history of college football. The band is on the field. So.
Jasper (42:44.356)
Hmm.
Brian Johnson (43:08.022)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jasper (43:08.388)
The band is on the field, right? Yeah.
Brian Johnson (43:12.918)
The play. The play is what it's called.
Gilmore Rodney (43:15.249)
The play is what it's called. And so I had to look at that stadium for three years while going to law school. Every day walking into law school, it's like, it's right there. And I'm like, ah, gosh, what did I do?
Brian Johnson (43:19.894)
Hahahaha!
Jasper (43:20.26)
HAHAHAHA
Chad (43:21.187)
Oh man.
Brian Johnson (43:27.286)
Oh, that's awful. That's awful.
Jasper (43:30.66)
but for those who don't have any idea, give us a rundown on what happened on that play because I was wise enough to - I came across the video years ago and I was absolutely amazed but give me the first - I've never had the opportunity to ask someone first hand what did that look like and what happened?
Brian Johnson (43:34.326)
Yes, yes, a bird.
Brian Johnson (43:40.502)
Yes.
Gilmore Rodney (43:43.152)
Yeah.
Brian Johnson (43:44.374)
Yeah, that was there!
Gilmore Rodney (43:48.016)
Well, so it was a big game for us for more than just the big game and bragging rights. If we, if we win the game, we're in a bowl game. And then the other thing is that we knew that John Elway was in contention for the Heisman Trophy and voting was going to happen the next week. And it's like, Hey, if we get into a bowl game and you know, John has a great game, John might win this thing, you know, the
Jasper (44:06.052)
Hmm.
Gilmore Rodney (44:17.456)
the country will start to see what he's all about. And so we knew all that. And I had been banged up the week before and I'd missed the previous game. I had a thigh bruise, I was limping around, I wasn't sure I was gonna be able to play. And it was like, you gotta play. And we were, the other corner, one of the other corners was also hurt. And so we didn't have any depth. And you'll love this, Brian. So we had on the team,
a kick returner wide receiver who was going to move over and back up the corners and give us a break a little bit.
Chad (45:00.002)
Oh no.
Jasper (45:01.764)
I don't think that's a recipe for success.
Gilmore Rodney (45:03.408)
Oh, it worked out well. Do you know who the GM was for the White Sox for a long, long time? Kenny Williams. Kenny Williams was a freshman at the time, and he was the, we moved him over from wide receiver and kick returner to.
Brian Johnson (45:10.998)
Yeah, Kenny Williams. I'm glad you brought him up. Yeah.
Brian Johnson (45:23.094)
So he was the guy, he was at the play also? Okay, I gotta ask him about that.
Gilmore Rodney (45:25.68)
He was on the team. I don't think he was on the kickoff coverage team that day because he was running back from offense over to defense to give me a break whenever I needed one. And so that was sort of the deal. Anyway, so defensively, we played one of our best games of the season. Our offense was struggling a bit. We get to late fourth quarter. You know, we're down.
Brian Johnson (45:29.174)
Okay.
Gilmore Rodney (45:54.672)
I forget what the score was, but we're down a couple points. We need to get a stop and get the ball back and we do. And now it's John Elway and the offense and what can you do? And the first two or three plays, you're just like, oh gosh, they got pushed back to inside their own 10 yard line. It's a fourth down and like 20. And John and Neil Harry, one of Stanford's great all time receivers.
Jasper (46:13.188)
No.
Chad (46:13.379)
Uh -huh.
Gilmore Rodney (46:22.672)
love to tell the story John's in the huddle and John tells the guys get open on three break you know whatever what the heck with calling the plane just get open and yeah
Brian Johnson (46:30.262)
Hahaha!
Jasper (46:32.9)
Get open.
Brian Johnson (46:33.686)
Let me stop you right there, right? So just for some context, I was at Montero Junior High School during that exact time of the game in the back on the basketball court to like 10 other guys. We were playing basketball, a pickup basketball game with that game on the radio as this play was being set up. So go ahead.
Gilmore Rodney (46:42.448)
Wow.
Gilmore Rodney (46:48.944)
Wow, wow. So you heard my third down stop that got us the ball back.
Chad (46:53.763)
Jeez.
Jasper (46:55.396)
Heheheheh
Brian Johnson (47:00.182)
Absolutely.
Gilmore Rodney (47:03.088)
So anyway, so John throws this bullet and I was used to seeing this in practice, but the folks in the stadium hadn't seen anything like this. Emile was covered by three guys, you know, in the middle of the field. And before any one of them could raise a hand to knock the ball down, this bullet would go, whoop, and it hits Emile in the chest and Emile said, I had no choice, I had to catch it.
Jasper (47:31.78)
Hehehehehe
Gilmore Rodney (47:32.88)
knocked me over or something and yep, first down, drive stays alive. You know, we moved down, we end up getting a Phil Go. They called time out with four seconds left and like, yeah, we're on the sideline celebrating. We're like, this is it. We know Mark Harmon's gonna nail the Phil Go and he does. And so we're all good. I mean, time out was called with eight seconds left. After the Phil Go, it's four seconds left. All you gotta do is kick off. Now,
Normally, I'd be on the kickoff coverage team and the other corner who was hurt would be on the kickoff coverage team. But neither one of us were on kickoff coverage that day because he couldn't play and I was trying to be saved just to play defense. And so we had some new guys out there, some freshmen and the like. And the decision was made, hey, just to, you know, squib it or so. You know, like whatever, game's over or whatnot.
Jasper (48:18.788)
Mmm.
Gilmore Rodney (48:32.24)
And for a second, and so the kick is squibbed and we watch, got our old friend and Skyline High friend, Dwight Garner pick up the ball and he gets tackled by 40 eyes. And his knee hits the ground, but they just said, they threw the ball out and kept running. And so like we're walking from the side, we're walking on the field.
Brian Johnson (48:32.31)
Four seconds.
Jasper (48:33.732)
Uhhh...
Brian Johnson (48:43.798)
Yeah, Dwight Garner.
Gilmore Rodney (49:00.304)
Cause games over, we see them tackled and games done, right? And they just keep going, no matter what happens, they just keep running. And we're just like, oh, whatever. And they're coming towards us. And for a split second, I thought, let's just tackle this guy. Yeah, just tackle him. And I was like, oh no, who knows what would happen? Let him run, it doesn't matter. And they just kept going and kept going. And then...
Jasper (49:14.916)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Johnson (49:15.382)
Hahaha!
Jasper (49:23.556)
Huh.
Gilmore Rodney (49:28.712)
They get in the end zone, everybody's acting like they won, and we're just like, no, come on, seriously, this can't possibly be right. And then we saw the officials huddle, and we're like, oh, this is not good. And so a bunch of us ran over to the officials huddle to see what they were talking about. And I kid you not, all I heard was, okay, let's get out of here. So, and I mean, the whole place is loud.
Brian Johnson (49:40.982)
trouble.
Jasper (49:41.636)
Uh oh. Yeah, uh oh.
Gilmore Rodney (49:58.567)
And I'm sure they were talking about whether it was valid or whatever, but all I heard was, okay, let's get out of here. And then they were gone.
Brian Johnson (50:04.534)
Yeah, because there's people, now I do Jasper and Chad, there's thousands of people on the field now along with players. And the last lateral for the touchdown, the cow guy catches it and he runs over one of the band members that were coming off the field to celebrate the trombone, the Stanford Victor.
Jasper (50:09.732)
Yeah, yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (50:11.399)
Yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (50:18.183)
Yeah, yeah, so when I when I said that we the players started walking on the field We're being passed by members of the band who were running on the field
Jasper (50:18.724)
Yeah.
Chad (50:20.323)
Ben's the trombone. Yeah, Ben a trombone.
Jasper (50:25.124)
I've seen it here.
Gilmore Rodney (50:33.959)
And then when we saw that the play was still alive, we started backing off and a lot of the band members started backing off also, but not all of them, right? And so, I mean, players who were trying to make tackles had to run around band members also to try to make a tackle.
Jasper (50:41.604)
Heheheheh
Jasper (50:51.076)
It's, it's just staggering. Like even when you think about it, now you've got technology and now you can just go, ah, instant replay is knee was down. Forget about it. It's done. Right. But it's the fact that this stuff it's, it's sort of magical in its own, right. I get to be like to be on the receiving end. I think it's anything but magical. But to me, those types of things that happen in sports just, it can't happen anywhere else. But I'm glad we've got you talking about college football though. Um,
Believe it or not. I live in the Netherlands. So there's if I talk to people about Alabama and they go hmm What are you talking about? But being a being a big Nick Saban fan I followed the Alabama football team for a while and I love college football. Absolutely love it. I love the system I love watching the games on Saturdays. Love it. But for you as a broadcaster who's been around for a long time now, I think for me I've always thought that broadcasters get the least amount of leeway sort of in
Gilmore Rodney (51:20.165)
Okay.
Brian Johnson (51:22.806)
Hahaha!
Gilmore Rodney (51:23.973)
You
Jasper (51:46.852)
professional television because it's all live, you mess something up, there's no retake. I was just curious to see that. How do you deal with that? Because you've for me, you've got to be super careful with what you're saying. Would you say that's true?
Gilmore Rodney (51:48.484)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (52:01.317)
Yeah, it's a high wire act. There's no doubt about it. You know, it's live. You can't hide. You know, if you ever, if you want to have some fun with yourself, just record yourself speaking as you normally would during the day for 15, 20 minutes and you go back and go, ah, of course I know subject -verb agreement. How did I screw that up? You know.
Jasper (52:05.348)
Yeah.
Jasper (52:23.108)
Yeah.
Brian Johnson (52:26.518)
Hahaha.
Jasper (52:29.892)
Hehehehe
Gilmore Rodney (52:31.044)
You know, so it can be painful to go back and listen to things, but one of the things that helps is if you have a really good producer who helps protect you. So a lot of times where we get in trouble is when you go to commercial break and, you know, everything is still on and you may say something that you wouldn't have said on air.
Jasper (52:50.18)
Hmm?
Gilmore Rodney (53:00.451)
So you really need your producer to help and protect you. So as he's counting you down to break, you may give you five, four, three. Remember, we're hot when we get off. Two, one, and then we're in commercial and you are hot. Do not say anything. So that's a good reminder that helps you.
Jasper (53:22.34)
Hmm.
Gilmore Rodney (53:26.466)
Or if you're not, he will let you know you're free, or she will let you know you're free to talk, or just remind you that, hey, we're not clear yet or so, or will tell you, get on TalkBack to share something with me and with your partner in the booth. Do not do it in the booth over here. And so you go in and you kind of know kind of what some of the hot buttons are. And we get...
Jasper (53:52.932)
Okay.
Gilmore Rodney (53:55.906)
We get inundated with a lot of stuff. And, journalistically, one of the issues for ESPN is that you've got all these partners and all these relationships, right? And the moment you say something that a conference or team doesn't like, then, you know, it's not only that, you know, social media gets after you.
Chad (54:07.139)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Gilmore Rodney (54:23.553)
because the fan base would just go, how dare you? But then now you've got the conference commissioner calling up ESPN and saying, I'll give you an example. All right. So a couple of years ago, I did an Oregon game and I figured who they were playing, doesn't matter. But their head coach is Mario Cristobal, right? And they were behind and it was getting right before...
Jasper (54:26.148)
Well, that's part of it, yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (54:52.385)
late in the first half, they're trying to get into position to score a field goal or get a score just to get closer before half time, right? And they've got this freshman receiver, Tony Franklin, was having a good game and the clock is running and it's third down in forever and he makes a great catch to give them a first down, you know, on the plus side, like the 45 yard line going in. So the drive stays alive, they might get a field goal and he stands up.
Jasper (55:01.38)
Mm.
Gilmore Rodney (55:22.72)
slams the ball, points first down, 15 yard penalty, moves them back, and Cristobal just goes nuts on the sideline. And so now they're out of range, clock is running down, he's mad, Franklin comes over, Cristobal gets in his face, and he's pointing at him, and he's yelling at him and everything, and Franklin is standing there, and he's just taking it. And Franklin's a...
Chad (55:28.867)
Ugh.
Gilmore Rodney (55:51.391)
not that it matters in this case, but he's a young black man from the Bay Area, right? I didn't know him personally, but he's going at him, you know, whatnot. Franklin's taking it, and then Cristobal walks away. And so as this is going on, I'm in the booth, and we're just talking, we're like, well, not a smart play. Yeah, you know, and yeah, it makes sense, you know, everybody's ticked off, you get it. And then Cristobal turns around.
Jasper (55:57.764)
Yeah.
Jasper (56:13.572)
Hehehehehe
Gilmore Rodney (56:20.606)
and goes back to him and goes at him again. And at this point I go, all right, that's enough. I mean, at this point, you made your point. Now all you're doing is just embarrassing the guy and you just don't need this. This is not a good look for him or anybody. You made your point, just back away. Enough is enough, you know. All right, crystal ball, here's about it. He gets ticked off.
Jasper (56:39.684)
Hmm. Yep.
Gilmore Rodney (56:49.693)
uh, their AD calls ESPN, you know, oh yeah, oh yeah. The, the, the Oregon fans, you know, are ripping me on social media. I hate Oregon. I hate the Ducks. How dare I, you know, and I would, I would, I would want my coach to talk to my son that way, you know, and whatnot, everything and all. And so this was, and then I got into a back and forth with the sports information director at Oregon, you know.
Brian Johnson (56:52.886)
What? Goodness.
Jasper (56:54.468)
Mmm.
Jasper (57:04.324)
Hahaha!
Gilmore Rodney (57:19.197)
And so I'm texting with him, I'm like, look, it's not good for Mario. And I said, the other thing is that in this day and age, that is a bad look for that person of authority to be doing that to a young African American on national TV. Not a good look. Next thing I know, I get, you know, Oregon going, he's racist. Did you see what he's told on our sports information?
Jasper (57:28.74)
Hmm.
Jasper (57:47.236)
Mmm.
Gilmore Rodney (57:49.117)
Anyway, so, yeah.
Brian Johnson (57:50.87)
Yeah, the Bobby Knight style of coaching is long gone.
Gilmore Rodney (57:54.684)
Right, exactly, exactly. So anyway, so yeah, if you say something, it's not just that social media will get after you, it's the partners, whether it is a team or a conference, they have a vested interest in having you present things most favorably to them at all times. That's not me. I mean, we're doing a disservice to the fans if we aren't objective and honest about what we see and what we talk about.
Jasper (58:20.964)
Exactly.
Gilmore Rodney (58:24.604)
And that's where the journalists get to, there's a conflict. That's just where the conflict is. And what you hope in that instance is that ESPN will stand behind you and go, hey, he's doing his job. That's it. Yeah.
Brian Johnson (58:25.366)
Yeah, what you would. Yeah, I'm sorry. What?
Jasper (58:39.748)
Yep, exactly. Yep.
Chad (58:39.875)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Johnson (58:40.918)
Right. Because if you don't speak up, you are speaking up by saying that's OK.
Chad (58:46.563)
That's right. Yeah, agreed, agreed.
Gilmore Rodney (58:46.587)
That's right. That's right. Yeah.
Jasper (58:48.932)
No, but I mean, that's such a delicate position though to be in. And I mean, to make that call every weekend to be able to make the right call. But I'll be curious to get your take on this, Rottney, because I'm a keen fan of the NFL and Tony Romo is sort of introduced to the stage. And for the first few games, I found him quite enjoyable to listen to a lot of knowledge there. But then it got for me, so I'm speaking, it's my opinion, right? I can be wrong, but it got sort of to a point where it's quite tedious to listen to, where it's sort of...
Gilmore Rodney (59:18.107)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Chad (59:18.243)
Mm -hmm.
Jasper (59:18.788)
predicting place as they go. And I know from what I read on Twitter, it got quite a bit of backlash because he was doing it too much. Just every single player. Yeah, I know where this is going. Like, okay, Tony, we get it. You're a smart guy, former quarterback. I get it. But how do you view the sort of next generation of broadcasters? Because I, for me, and that's just a sense, there's no science behind any of this. To me, there seems to be a sort of gap, maybe a talent gap of the next generation of broadcasters where I go,
I'm actually struggling to find younger people that I enjoy listening to for three hours on a Saturday or a Sunday. Maybe I'm wrong, could be wrong, but give me your take on that.
Gilmore Rodney (01:00:00.345)
Well, I do think we are in a transition period when it comes to that and what broadcasters believe is the right way to approach things. Not to date us too much, but Brian, we grew up with Pat Somerall really limited as a play -by -play guy because the view was you're watching the game. I don't have to describe that the quarterback turned around and handed off and the running back took it outside.
You know, Pat Summerall's view was, you know, Emmett Smith. You know, and yeah, right, right. But we've, we're in this period where being able to entertain more is becoming a bigger thing. Being able to find a phrase comment situation that will get you more clicks on social media.
Brian Johnson (01:00:35.766)
Right, right. There he goes. Yeah.
Chad (01:00:36.707)
Right, right.
Gilmore Rodney (01:00:59.864)
becomes more of a thing than ever before. And so instead of the focus being on the game itself and storytelling, it's shifting more towards entertainment. I mean, my view has always been, and maybe this is the English major background in me, is that whether you are reading a book or watching a movie or watching a game, you want conflict.
Jasper (01:01:01.764)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (01:01:29.111)
You know, and you want resolution of that conflict and you want it wrapped in a good story. And so for me, that is really what is compelling about athletics because the built in conflict is who wins. And that's great when you have a vested interest in seeing, you know, whether you're bet on the game or if you're just a fan, you want to see who wins, but you need storytelling in addition to that for.
the people who are not as invested simply in who wins. And the storytelling can simply be as, you know, typically, you know, let's take a quarterback, you know, like, okay, this is a guy who he's getting his first shot. He sat on the bench, you know, for three years and now it's his shot. Here's the conflict. Will he succeed or will he not? And how does that impact everything else? And so now you wait to see how does this conflict get resolved? Does...
Jasper (01:02:11.108)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (01:02:27.126)
Does he rise to the occasion? Is he the underdog who comes through or not? And it's not simply just does he complete 70 % of his passes and does the team win, but there's gotta be a story underlying it that helps. And I think today's broadcasters are struggling with storytelling versus I gotta entertain. And also let me prove to you,
Jasper (01:02:30.5)
Exactly.
Jasper (01:02:51.972)
Exactly. Yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (01:02:55.861)
how much I know about the game. And when they do that, you are talking down and talking over the audience, you know? And probably the person who's helped me most in my life as a broadcaster about that aspect of it, from the very start was my wife. Because she would watch and she'd say, I really am tired of hearing about cover two.
Jasper (01:02:57.572)
Yeah, yeah.
Jasper (01:03:18.116)
Mmm.
Gilmore Rodney (01:03:25.173)
I wish somebody would tell me what cover two is, you know? And everybody talks about the box is loaded. Well, where does that box begin and where does it end? You know? Yeah. And so I make it a point to make sure that when I do those things, when I talk about, when I say, hey, they're in a cover two, you got two deep safeties and you got the corners playing short, you know?
Jasper (01:03:25.828)
Yeah.
Brian Johnson (01:03:29.494)
Great, great fun.
Jasper (01:03:36.036)
Exactly. Yeah.
Chad (01:03:36.867)
And what does loaded mean, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (01:03:52.084)
Now I'm letting the experts know, I know what a cover two is, you know, and we're telling everybody else, okay, we call it two because the two safeties are back there, all right, and they're splitting half the field. So now you get it, now you have that. And then, you know, same sort of thing. If I'm talking about the box, or if I'm talking about a blitz or whatever, I try to make sure I'm speaking to my wife and others who will understand it and not get caught up in.
Jasper (01:04:01.796)
Yeah, exactly.
Jasper (01:04:17.156)
That's great, yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (01:04:20.052)
you know, the lingo in the biz where so many people want to prove that they're an insider and they know the lingo and what's being called all the time.
Jasper (01:04:23.108)
Yeah.
Jasper (01:04:29.924)
I love that. I love that.
Chad (01:04:29.987)
So many Europeans need that. So many Europeans need that, Rod. So thank you so much. Thank you so much.
Brian Johnson (01:04:32.694)
Hahaha!
Gilmore Rodney (01:04:34.196)
Well, and so the thing with Tony Romo, you know, is that anything can become a crutch, you know, in broadcasting. And you have to get away from that. I mean, we can all predict plays, you know, as much as we want. You know, part of it is, you know, in my prep, I prep it like it's a game I'm playing. So I watch.
Brian Johnson (01:04:36.406)
That's right.
Jasper (01:05:00.388)
Mmm.
Gilmore Rodney (01:05:02.772)
all the film that I can on a team, excuse me. So when I go into the meetings with the coaches, I'm able to say, and this is what coaches, coaches will be more honest with you when they know you've done the work. You know, when you go in and you say, tell me about your defense, and they're like, this guy wants me to give him a game plan. You know, when you go in and you say, look, two weeks ago, you guys played, you know, 40%.
Jasper (01:05:16.548)
Absolutely. Yep.
Gilmore Rodney (01:05:31.54)
sort of cover four and then you played a little bit of man out of that and now this past week you were like you were completely you know in nickel and cover two most of the time you didn't blitz the one time you did blitz you blitzed it from the field so what's what's the reason for the change and whatnot and then you start to get okay here's kind of what we expect and I always ask the coaches and I get this from ESPN too because we have a research department that does this stuff I want to know
What are their top plays? What percentage of the time do they run it to the tight end side? What percentage of the time do they run it to the open end side? Where have they been most successful? Formation, so we get all that info. And Tony Romo gets it too. And some of it is stuff that he's seen and done himself, but you have that information and when you met with the coaching staff, if they're honest with you, you should always know going in.
Jasper (01:06:03.3)
Hmm.
Gilmore Rodney (01:06:30.58)
kind of what your game plan ought to be. So for example, for me, I know which matchups I should care about. And when I go sit in a meeting with a coach and I ask him about matchups and if a coach says, oh, we don't worry about matchups, it's my scheme versus his scheme. I'm like, I don't have any more questions. Because you're BSing right up. Because if you don't care about matchups, you shouldn't be coaching.
Chad (01:06:32.899)
Mm -hmm.
Jasper (01:06:46.948)
Yeah
Chad (01:06:48.803)
Yeah, yeah, you're just BSing me right now and you're going to do it the entire time. Yes.
Brian Johnson (01:06:48.918)
Yeah.
Brian Johnson (01:06:58.262)
Hey, please, please continue that fight to continue to be the commentator that tells the story and is like Pat Summerall because I like that better. I enjoy learning something from you as you tell it. And, you know, I hope your industry doesn't get pulled into the clickbait that all that, you know, instantaneous satisfaction or conflict, gratification conflict everywhere and all that. I just hate that that's going that way.
Chad (01:07:05.059)
Yes.
Gilmore Rodney (01:07:08.18)
Yeah.
Chad (01:07:20.259)
Gratification. Yeah.
Brian Johnson (01:07:27.894)
So please continue that fight.
Gilmore Rodney (01:07:28.98)
Well, we're trying and it's not just me. I mean, I shout out to Mark Jones, you know, his producer, Ken Belton. I'll tell you another quick story, you know, and this is really where you have to have, you know, the executives behind you. You know, they did a game where they brought up the Black Wall Street massacre, you know, and, you know, tied that into Georgia and how land had been taken away and used to build.
expand the stadium and the like and whatnot. Great story. People learn something. A lot of people came away from going, I'd never heard of Black Wall Street being burned and massacred and the like. And I didn't know it had any connection to the University of Georgia. Well, you can imagine what the SEC in Georgia had to say about that. They were not happy. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, there are a few of us who are trying to fight the good fight and keep things,
Jasper (01:08:09.092)
Yeah.
Brian Johnson (01:08:17.366)
Yeah, sure, sure, absolutely. Wow.
Jasper (01:08:18.82)
They weren't happy, no.
Gilmore Rodney (01:08:28.532)
Yeah, this is part of the history of growing up in that kind of a home with my folks focused on civil rights, you know, inequality. And so, yeah, we fight and we bring those things up and we'll see. We're hopeful that, you know, that continues, but at some point we need the young crew to take over and carry that forward.
Chad (01:08:53.827)
Well, it's not that time yet, Rod. Okay, you still got work to do, my friend. And for all those listeners that are out there as we wrap this up, where can they find you? Where can they regularly see a little bit of Rodney Gilder?
Gilmore Rodney (01:09:09.332)
Well, football season, I'm pretty much out there, so you can catch me there. But social media, I'm on Instagram and I'm on, it's still Twitter to me. So it's Rod C. Gilmore at ESPN. You can catch me there. And I've got Spring Games for ESPN coming up. I'll be at Pittsburgh this weekend. I'll be at Louisville next weekend.
Jasper (01:09:20.932)
It's still Twitter to me too. Same here.
Brian Johnson (01:09:21.27)
That's right.
Chad (01:09:21.475)
Same here. Same here.
Chad (01:09:34.403)
Nice.
Jasper (01:09:35.652)
Really nice. Cool.
Gilmore Rodney (01:09:37.524)
for those games and then it'll be College Football Live starting in the summer. As we bring back College Football, I'll be on those daily shows and catch me there. And then in the fall, it's back in the booth for another season of what could be the strangest, most bizarre College Football season. Pack 12, our conference is gone, BJ. We've got...
Jasper (01:10:03.14)
Yeah.
Gilmore Rodney (01:10:06.196)
conferences flying all over the country now to play. We're going to have a 12 team playoff. You know, we're finally at the point. Here's the other thing we didn't really have a chance to talk about. But one of the things that I've been fighting for with others the last 10, 15 years is equality for college athletes. And started with the abandoned case and has gone through to the Alston case. And after all these years, we're finally seeing players
Jasper (01:10:29.444)
Mmm.
Gilmore Rodney (01:10:36.052)
getting a chance to share in some of the great, massive amounts of money that has been generated in college athletics. And so I'm proud to have been a part of that. I appeared before a Senate committee on name, image, and likeness a couple of years ago, along with Andrew Luck and Ryan Clark and a few others. I was at the White House last November.
Chad (01:10:41.123)
massive amount of revenues. Yeah.
Brian Johnson (01:10:43.734)
Sorry.
Jasper (01:10:44.068)
Yeah.
Jasper (01:10:57.604)
Yeah, right.
Brian Johnson (01:11:02.518)
Okay.
Jasper (01:11:04.996)
Cool.
Gilmore Rodney (01:11:05.012)
to discuss these issues and the White House has made it clear that they are firmly on the side of players receiving more compensation and better healthcare. And so that's been a big point of emphasis for me since the O 'Bannon case was filed. And so I think we're right at the point where revenue sharing is going to come either willingly or unwillingly by the courts. So I'm just really thrilled to see all that happening now.
Brian Johnson (01:11:34.934)
So with revenue sharing before we go, does that mean that the money will be spread out so that everybody gets some instead of only the superstars getting them? Or not necessarily? Huh?
Chad (01:11:44.291)
Not at first.
Gilmore Rodney (01:11:45.94)
Well, I believe that what we're going to see with revenue sharing is that I think initially it'll be limited to TV revenue and I think it'll be shared likely by football, all football players. Let's say for example, in the SEC, I believe that we're going to have some sort of a union. I think the union will be by sport. And so the SEC football players union,
Jasper (01:11:54.852)
Okay.
Gilmore Rodney (01:12:13.908)
To me, it makes more sense in each team having its own union, but it could go that way. But regardless of the way it takes form for the union, it'll be TV revenue. And pick your percentage, 20, 30, 40, 50 % of it will be allocated to those players in that union. So the football players, for example, would then share that amount of the revenue. So it'll be similar to, you know, the NFL, Major League Baseball.
Brian Johnson (01:12:17.75)
Sure, sure.
Gilmore Rodney (01:12:43.764)
with the with TV revenue being shared and that will happen because the courts demand it or the conferences will wake up and go we're going to lose these cases we should go ahead and make this happen because we can no longer justify it but the answer your questions it will be shared among all players for revenue sharing in some sort of an equal manner and then anything else name image likeness however
You know, you may have quarterbacks who opt out for something else, but that key portion, for example, TV revenue, would be shared. And at this point, that focuses on football players and men's and women's basketball players, not the other non -revenue sports. That may happen eventually, but this is where we are.
Brian Johnson (01:13:28.822)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Johnson (01:13:32.982)
Yeah, and that's a long fight and I appreciate you guys.
Chad (01:13:33.571)
That's Rodney Gilmore, friends. Hey, that's Rodney Gilmore. Sorry, guys, we gotta wrap it up. This is too fun. We gotta have Rodney back. We gotta have Rodney back. It's gonna be football season. You can find Rodney all over the place, and we really appreciate you coming on, my friend. Thanks so much for the stories and for coming on and meeting you. Great to meet you.
Gilmore Rodney (01:13:40.788)
All right. Thanks for having me, Kyle.
Jasper (01:13:42.788)
Yeah, he should be the recurring guest.
Brian Johnson (01:13:43.094)
Yes.
Gilmore Rodney (01:13:53.332)
My pleasure.
Gilmore Rodney (01:13:58.804)
Well, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. All right. All right. Take care.
Jasper (01:14:01.22)
Thanks Rodney.
Chad (01:14:01.603)
Excellent guys, that's another one in the books.
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