Chasing Nicki Paterson

Chad Sowash (00:20.975)

Hey, listener. Welcome to Talent Chasing, the podcast where we bring real world stories from the fields, courts, and pitches of Major League Sports and offices of corporate talent. Think of us as muddy ball meets office space. It's our job to amplify those hidden stories and finding, retaining, and motivating the best talent in the world because no team exists anywhere without great talent. I'm Chad Sowash, Recruitment Industry veteran.

Brian Johnson (00:51.394)

And I'm Brian Johnson, former Major League Baseball player and scout. On this episode, we dig into the wonderful world of football. No, not soccer, European football with Scottish footballer, Nicki Patterson. Nicki, welcome to the Talent Chaser. I'm glad to have you here.

Nicki Paterson (01:08.552)

Thanks, Brian. Thanks, Chad. Delighted to be here.

Chad Sowash (01:11.727)

Okay, man, I got to start off, Nicki, we definitely appreciate you being here. But first and foremost, I got to say my condolences to the Scottish team after the really bad loss to Germany just a few days ago. I'm sorry about that, man.

Nicki Paterson (01:27.688)

Yeah, listen, we're just doing our part to make sure the guys get the show off to a good start, right? I mean, I heard a story the other day that there was 200 ,000 Scottish people there and only 25 ,000 tickets. So I actually think there's more men of age that can drink alcohol in Germany rather than Scotland right now. So I actually think I'm the only one here.

Chad Sowash (01:40.943)

You

Chad Sowash (01:55.887)

You're married, but that would make the odds much better for a single man. Let me tell you So who's next who's next you guys are in group a right?

Nicki Paterson (01:58.448)

Trip.

Nicki Paterson (02:05.608)

Yes, so we're playing, we've got Switzerland coming up tomorrow evening. So again, an equally difficult game. Much better players. But the way I look at it is it just, it can only go up from here. It can't get any worse.

Chad Sowash (02:23.567)

That was pretty bad, Nicki.

Nicki Paterson (02:26.568)

I think for me though, it's typical of Scotland, right? We've been terrible for tens of years. And over the last five or six years, we've actually started to, in our eyes, punch above our weight. And we probably have set the bar too high for even ourselves where it wasn't about just taking part this time for us. It was about, we're actually going to do something. Like the optimism in people's faces and eyes. I mean, I was in a house on Friday, everybody, I went out and bought.

Chad Sowash (02:33.103)

huh.

Chad Sowash (02:47.311)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nicki Paterson (02:56.616)

$200 Scotland jersey, right? I'll never wear it again, likely, but the optimism was huge. So we dreamt for a moment back to reality now.

Chad Sowash (03:09.263)

Yeah. So do you think the, the, the success in rugby has actually gotten you guys at least a little bit more ego around sports. It's like, we can do this because you guys are kicking ass, taking names in rugby.

Nicki Paterson (03:21.416)

It's crazy, I almost think it's two very different worlds, Chad, in Scotland. Very few people follow both. I quite like both, my family quite like both, but it's the big Scottish games, not the regional or local level. But it is two very, very different sports, two very different levels of supporters, of fans. But for sure, I'd love to emulate what they've done in the rugby in recent years.

Chad Sowash (03:38.415)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (03:51.343)

Yeah, I bet. Yeah, I bet. OK, well, cool. Let's go ahead. Let's dig into this. Let's dig into this a little bit. First and foremost here at Talent Chasing, we want to start at the beginning, right? We want to know how did you get into first and foremost? Did you think you're going to be a footballer? Was that kind of like your...

big dream when you were a kid, I can assume that it was, but was that like your big dream of a kid? I'm sure it wasn't cricket. What got you into it in the first place?

Nicki Paterson (04:24.424)

It's an obsession in Scotland. I mean, we don't have baseball, we don't have all the sports that you have in the States, right? It's a religion. Almost in many ways, if you look at the two top teams in Scotland, you've got Celtic and Rangers. They're split by religion, first and foremost. And so you grow up one way or the other. Now, I've ended up marrying. My wife is a Rangers fan and I'm a Celtic fan, right? So for me, not as important.

Chad Sowash (04:41.551)

Yes.

Nicki Paterson (04:54.6)

My wife was actually a Rangers cheerleader, believe it or not, back in the day. But my very first memory as a young kid is football, you know, and my father played not at a professional level, but at a good level. And he just pushed me into it, but said I was really keen on it from a very young age as well. You know, there's pictures where the strips drown in you at six years old. And I think...

You know, as I got a little bit older, I was the youngest kid in my year. So I was always playing and I was a January born and the cutoff was there. So I always played with my friends. I was always the youngest one. I was always playing against kids, six to 12 months older. And I think that was good for me. And an absolutely amazing story, right, is just last Wednesday, my son was picked to play for his school team for the first time.

He's just about to turn nine and obsessed. I'm his coach as well and stuff right now, but totally obsessed over the last year or so. And the school that he's playing at actually have acquired a piece of land next to the school where I grew up and I played on. And there's actually a soccer goal or football goal cemented into the ground that we stole from a team and put there 20 something years ago. So.

Chad Sowash (05:51.535)

Wow.

Brian Johnson (06:17.186)

Yeah.

Nicki Paterson (06:20.2)

Myself, my dad, my father -in -law were watching my son going and he scored three goals, right? He killed it, he done amazing. And I'm just standing watching this, he's celebrating and I'm looking at him playing here, the goal that I grew up on playing there and I'm thinking this was my safe haven when I was a kid, right? I mean, there was a grass pitch with a concrete path through it and we played there from the minute we get in from school until the lights went out and...

you know, if it rained we went into the school and played. So I was just constantly playing and I was always allowed to play with the older kids because I was always the one with the ball. So I was allowed to play. But again, I just, for me, I was obsessed by it from a very, very young age and I think it really made me the person that I am today.

Brian Johnson (07:06.274)

So many similarities, I see just, I was the same way when I play, I would go play sports, mostly baseball, but wherever and same thing until the lights went out all day.

here domestically here in the US, we can't do that anymore. If you leave your kid out to play all day, you can get thrown in jail for yeah, yeah, you're a terrible parent neglect and odd stuff. Is it the same? Does that transfer? Are you all experiencing the same thing in Europe?

Nicki Paterson (07:26.248)

A responsible parent, right?

Nicki Paterson (07:36.552)

I really worry about the world. My kids are grown up into it. I've got two boys, five, five and nine, and you feel you can't take your eyes off them. And my son's like, my friend's just moved a mile up the street. Can I just run up to his house? And you're going, no, you can't. You know, I'm very fortunate that we've got almost a mini soccer field in my back garden now. So this is where all the kids congregate. And as nuts as it drives my wife, I know they're safe and I can see them and they're there.

Brian Johnson (07:39.778)

Yeah, sure.

Nicki Paterson (08:04.232)

I don't think my neighbours like it with the balls going in the garden so often. But, yes, it's totally different. I mean, literally it was door open, hey, it's dinner time, and you ran in and then you went back out and played again. And I don't think it was that your parents were irresponsible or anything. It was just the way that it was. And I would much rather my son was out there playing football or golf or whatever tennis than sitting in the Xbox or the PlayStation, that's for sure.

Chad Sowash (08:33.359)

Yeah, well, Brian, Brian, I got to say that there's a huge similarity, I think, between you two around, he's just talking about kids, right? And you'd said on in your episode that it was nice that, you know, you went to Detroit because people didn't know that you were a professional professional athlete. So there wasn't that pressure on the kids, right?

Brian Johnson (08:33.538)

Yeah, I agree.

Chad Sowash (08:58.159)

What about you, Nicki? They know dad is a Scottish footballer, right? So is there pressure that's there? And if there is, how do you deal with that? Especially with the kids, because they haven't seen pressure before.

Nicki Paterson (09:14.728)

It's funny, like, I turned professional in Scotland at 16 and, you know, the first three or four years in Scotland, it was, you know, it was exciting, it was amazing. And then obviously I moved across to the US and I slipped through the system because I managed to get back to do a scholarship at that point when you really shouldn't have if you'd been paid before. So hopefully...

Chad Sowash (09:36.527)

Yeah, because you were a pro, right? You went from pro to amateur.

Nicki Paterson (09:39.784)

So if anybody's at the clearing house right now, close your ears quickly. But I went to UNLV, right? So we weren't that, we were trying to break into the top 25. We weren't UCLA, we weren't, you know, one of those top teams. Obviously then turned professional after that and we maybe get into that later. But I think for me, I'm, I would have loved my son to have seen me play at the level I played a little bit more. I mean, we left.

Brian Johnson (09:42.818)

Yeah.

Nicki Paterson (10:07.368)

the US when he was one and a half. And we came back and I played for another few years in Scotland before moving into the coaching side. And he looks at me playing now at over 35s or maybe in the last couple of years and he's like, Dad, when did you stop playing in those real stadiums? I'm thinking Christ. And you know, so there was something flashed up there. I was working a couple of weeks ago and Facebook I only use for, this happened eight years ago or someone's birthday now.

And there was like a top five Sports Centre plays or something and a free kick of mine goes in and my son was like, you know, dad, you're awesome, right? And it was one of those moments where I just wished there was more of those in some ways. So I would say in Scotland, they've got a good way of keeping your feet on the ground. And I've always tried to be humble where my friends will say to my son, he was terrible at football, right? You know, like...

But yeah, I've not had tons of those experiences. I think actually more so in the US and Canada had those more so. In Scotland, I guess it's because it's the main sport. I'm one of many.

Brian Johnson (11:20.322)

One of the challenges we have here, again, I hope it doesn't translate this part. Sometimes we who have been professional athletes, we're not really good with our kids when they start playing, regardless of what it is, because we expect perfection or we're kind of pushing, pushing. We want them to have the same fire as us. I felt like it was always beneficial to tell my son and my daughter when I messed up, right? When I wasn't good so that they could have.

Nicki Paterson (11:33.736)

Thank you.

Brian Johnson (11:49.89)

that understanding because I know that they're going to get pushback from people who know you, right? Or who know the parent. Have you dealt with that at all as in your I'm sure you're helping coaching or inside or whatever it may be. How are you as a dad, as a parent and also kind of coaching mom to all that all those dynamics coming into play?

Nicki Paterson (12:10.408)

It's funny you mention that about a year or so ago. One of the parents that so my son, my son actually like I was pushing him into it five and he wasn't ready and I was devastated, totally devastated and all of a sudden he was in judo and gymnastics and I'm thinking what's going on here and he came to me one day and said, Dad, can I join the team that you know my friends going to and I'm thinking here we go and.

But I didn't want to coach it first because I was still playing, I was coaching at a semi -professional level and I just thought it's going to be too much for me to do this plus this corporate role I'm doing as well, right?

What happened was one of the, so it's not coaches, it's dads, right? And one of the dads didn't put something on the coaches chat, he put it on the parents chat. And let's just say what he said about the parents and the kids meant he was no longer the coach. And very quickly it was, okay, we've got some really under qualified dads here and you're standing up there watching. But totally what you just said there made me laugh because.

Chad Sowash (13:06.095)

Uhhhh

Nicki Paterson (13:21.32)

My way of coaching was at the beginning, be as hard as possible on Leo. So the other kids don't mess around because half of it was glorified babysitting. Half of it was kids more advanced and really want to learn. And half the time, you're just putting out fires and splitting up fights and tying shoelaces. So I think the first six months for me was really hard to adjust because I'm used to coaching. And I quite...

Basically, I've torn my ACL. So for six months, I just used that six months to study every coaching session that my coach did. I did rehab in the morning, I watched practice, and then I rehabbed again in the afternoon. And I basically created this Bible of sessions of what were the sessions for, what did I like, what did I not like, et cetera. What did the players like? What did I like as a player myself to finish my career with? Here's 100 sessions, right? That was the advice I got from one of my old coaches.

And for me, I like every training session to be different so the players can never say, we did that last Thursday or we do this every Wednesday. It keeps them on their toes and that's where I feel I've always been part of successful teams. Going from coaching 20 to 35 year olds and it be livelihood to eight year olds fighting, I still pull my hair out of it to be honest, but I think I've mellowed out a little bit.

Brian Johnson (14:43.33)

Yeah, it's a tough challenge. It's really tough. How was your father or your parents? What is their story in relation to how they kind of supported you and what you did, but just in their story in general, what did they do? What were they up to when you were growing up?

Nicki Paterson (14:45.384)

you

Nicki Paterson (15:03.527)

So my dad was actually a Scottish judo champion for 10 years and also played soccer or football, right, we'll just call it football from here on out. But his passion was football.

Chad Sowash (15:08.271)

Wow.

Brian Johnson (15:12.962)

The guys with the hair is good to make decisions on this show. So we're calling it football.

Chad Sowash (15:18.383)

Yeah, yeah, call it football.

Nicki Paterson (15:19.204)

Yeah. And he, but his dad was super strict on him, like really, really strict on him and wanted him to do judo because it was an individual sport. And, you know, it's all you, you decide where you go in life there. Whereas my dad was like me, I get called the connector often by the friends and my dad, I think very similar. He's just a guy that gets into a room and everybody likes him no matter the age group, gender, you name it, right. And...

For him, the social aspect of football, I think he liked his friends done it. And, you know, I think, I think very early in my career, my dad was the guy that, come on then, let's go out and play. But, you know, I wanted to hit with my right foot and he's like, no, hit with your left foot. So he was always, he was really, really tough in a nice way, encouraging, but tough. And I would score two goals and the whole way home, it'd be like, yeah, you missed that chance. And I'd be like, you know, I just can't please this guy.

But if I look at it now, he wasn't really that hard on me. He really wasn't. If I think back, at the time I'm thinking he's an asshole, but now I look back, I go, he was there every single day. That's not an asshole, that's a supportive parent that pushed me to be better. And it's trying to find that balance now because I look at my dad and go, I want to be more like him, right?

Chad Sowash (16:30.127)

Mm -hmm.

Chad Sowash (16:40.235)

Yeah. Well, you didn't have a frame of reference really, right? So it was like as a kid, you don't have much of a frame of reference. Brian and I were just talking about this around time. Time goes so much faster when you're older. But as a kid, you think that people are getting into you all the time and literally they're not. As you get older, as you get older, you realize, and I've apologized to my mom several times about how I was when I was a kid for God's sake.

Nicki Paterson (16:50.664)

Bye.

Nicki Paterson (16:54.76)

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

Chad Sowash (17:05.647)

But I mean, it was just like the reference, the reference wasn't there. Now you get that reference, that reference point. You're like, wow, what? Yeah, it is. It is amazing. Well, in that being said, let's go ahead. Let's let's jump forward to you went pro at 16. Then how did you get this opportunity to go to UNLV and how did that all come together? Because that was one of the things that really got that really kind of stuck in my head was, wait a minute, he was a pro. And then.

Nicki Paterson (17:11.88)

Time is the best currency we have. 100%.

Chad Sowash (17:35.951)

He went amateur. How did that happen? Right. So, so talk a little bit about that.

Nicki Paterson (17:41.256)

I'm kind of crazy, like I mean, again, I'm graduating high school, I'm only 15 turning 16 and I'm saying, I actually had two options at that point. I could have been a fighter pilot and go to university or Top Gun was my favorite film. So I was kind of one of those two routes. It was either Top Gun or it was, and I wasn't interested in any other type of pilot. It was Top Gun or football. And I actually failed the I -Exam.

Chad Sowash (17:55.055)

I

Nicki Paterson (18:08.872)

And three weeks later, I signed my first professional contract. I was already playing three, four nights a week for one of the teams in the top tier in Scotland, in Motherwell, which was my local team. And again, that was an awesome experience because while most of my friends were starting to go out, I really wasn't that interested. I look back now and go, God, I was actually really, really focused. I wasn't that interested in girls. I wasn't interested in drinking. I actually was pretty, pretty dedicated. I had my moments, don't get me wrong, but...

Chad Sowash (18:18.575)

Mm.

Nicki Paterson (18:38.76)

I think what was really interesting for me was the TV rights and the TV money in Scotland are super, the teams are so reliant on that. And, you know, in the first club that I was at, a big TV deal went down and a lot of teams were looking to get cut teams and whatnot. I actually went to Muddal's big rival at 18, right across the town, that's the way my wife is from, right one mile across the road, their biggest rivals. So it went from Muddal to Hamilton. And,

again went straight into the first team environment. So that for me was a huge wake up call at 17 to be playing professional, professional debut. And because you're there genuinely with people that are 33 coming to the end of their career, nothing else there. And that was a championship. Yeah, yeah. And for me, it was that was the first taste of it for me. My first five games, I played five different positions. You know, I was a

Chad Sowash (19:16.911)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (19:22.415)

yeah. Was that champion, was that the championship league at that time? Wow. Okay. Wow. That's big.

Nicki Paterson (19:37.096)

a centre mid and I never played that once. But for me it was just insane and I really, really loved it. But I was so lucky because the person that had been my U16 coach at the other club had become the first team manager of the new club and I just basically jumped about three levels and he felt that I was ready. He also played me for five games and then dropped me for five and then put me back in.

He actually treated me well at the time. I'm thinking, what have I done? I hadn't done anything. He was just phasing me in and kind of keeping me grounded and on my feet. And I think that was important. And quite similarly, there was another kind of a another money deal just as I was 19 about to turn 20. And, you know, you were only just starting to hear about US scholarships. So there was this company called at that point in time First Point USA.

Chad Sowash (20:04.239)

Mm -hmm.

Nicki Paterson (20:31.72)

and they invited us to a trial game at Rangers Murray Park complex, which is a 40 million pound, you know, seven or eight amazing bowling green pitches, indoor facilities, you name it. And I thought, what's the worst that can happen? But I actually got sold that more as a, can you come and make up some of the numbers? There's going to be English scouts, European scouts and US scouts. US was the kind of third place choice for me then. And I played two games. The first game I scored three.

Two of them were from about 25 yards. And then in the second game, the game was 1 -1, and I scored a penalty. So I scored like four of the seven goals on show that day. And I'll never forget it. As I was walking off, and I really thought anything of it, I thought they'll get in touch with you during the week if something happens. And getting ready to shower, and door opens, and a guy pops his head and says, Nicky, can you come here a second? And I swear there was a line of about 18 coaches.

all US university coaches just lined up just to chat to me one at a time. And it was, hey, would you like to come to X? Would you like to come to Y? And I probably chose the worst football school, but the last person I spoke to was a guy called Frank D 'Amelio. It was January, right? It's freezing. He's got a red suit on. All you could see was like this part of his face. And he said, how would you like to come and play in Las Vegas? And just within five minutes, I was like, I love this guy.

and I turned down four or five full -ride offers for other schools to go to UNLV. But yeah, it was quite a crazy turn of events. I was still signed with the team that I was going to. I had to kind of see that out. I had a friend at the SFA that got my status put back to amateur for about $50. And we wiped my Wikipedia page so nobody would ever know. And half of that's still gone. So I'm a total fraud. But...

Brian Johnson (22:22.626)

Hahaha!

Nicki Paterson (22:28.04)

But yeah, just crazy, crazy experience. All of a sudden I find myself 20 in Vegas and I'm not even allowed in a bar because I'm not 21 yet.

Chad Sowash (22:36.367)

yeah. Geez. So I'm going to ask this question from Brian because I know he wants to hear this one. What's the difference between the Scouts? You just talked about the American Scouts, right? What's the difference between the Scouts in Europe or just in the UK versus the difference between the Scouts in the US? Was there that much of it? Was it more relational? What did you see was the difference?

Nicki Paterson (23:03.208)

I mean, I think a lot of the scouting system in soccer at the time in the US was like the assistant coach or one of the coaches. So for them, it was they went, they had to do it themselves. It was part of their remit. Whereas I think the maturity of obviously football in Europe, they've got scouts all over the place and networks and ecosystems everywhere. There's nowhere really to hide.

In the UK, if you're good, people know about it. If you're shit, people know about it. I think I had a really good day that day that the scouts were over from the US. And I think I've done all right out of it. Don't get me wrong, but you could have been an average player. I know loads of average players that have came over because a tiny little bit of footage or they've went off of a couple of words here and there. I mean, I look at baseball, for example.

Chad Sowash (23:33.359)

I'm sorry.

Chad Sowash (23:55.151)

Mm -hmm.

Nicki Paterson (23:58.216)

you know, the stats and the data and I'm obsessed by data and the business world. And if I look back, it was actually quite start heavy when I was in when I was in the US as well. And I realized quite quickly you could play shit and score a goal and get team of the week. And next year you could be on double the money you were on the year before, et cetera. You know, Moneyball, one of my favorite films, et cetera. Right. So for me, I think that at that point, the scouting system in the US for soccer was terrible.

If I look at it now in the MLS and the way that that's going, night and day.

Brian Johnson (24:33.762)

So did I hear you correctly that the US scouts seem to be assistant coaches, whereas the European scouts were kind of just kind of scouts and kind of evaluating everybody? Did it seem like they were a little bit more in depth in their evaluation or was it something different?

Nicki Paterson (24:44.328)

What?

Nicki Paterson (24:52.328)

I think the scouting system in Europe is typically players that have maybe got injured and they, you know, okay, we want to keep you in the payroll and you become a scout, go and watch games for us because you can't play or older coaches that, you know, they don't want to run the day to day anymore, but they want to be involved in it in some capacity. So I think they just the knowledge and the experience of the scouts in Europe is superior, particularly in football. And I think at that point in time in the US, yeah, I mean, it was the case of is the off season.

We're building for next year. The coaches go and check out a couple of exhibitions and go from there.

Brian Johnson (25:28.61)

So why did the Vegas offer out of hand? It sounds like that was appealing to you. Why was it appealing to you if the superiority in the game was in Europe and not in the US, but it seems like something triggered you to where you're like, yeah, that's a good fit for me.

Chad Sowash (25:47.311)

Vegas, baby.

Nicki Paterson (25:49.064)

I don't know, I mean, yes, the lights ringing in my head. This guy was just the coolest guy I'd met. Every other team was like, hey, you know, here's how good we are, or here's our yearbook or whatever it may be. And it was just, it was the same, it was the same, it was the same. And then there was one guy, third from the bottom was an English guy. And he was like, look, we've got 10 English guys in the team. And I thought, do I want to be the one Scottish guy with 10 English guys? Probably not.

Chad Sowash (26:16.687)

Ha ha ha!

Nicki Paterson (26:18.984)

But that guy stood out to me because he's knowledge of the game. He'd been at Liverpool and things like that before. And I'm thinking, right, okay, and it's only it's in the East Coast. And most of them had been East Coast Central. There was one in California, but he was like a junior college. And again, I was so naive to the levels and NCA, NAIA, etc. at that point in time. And I don't know, it was just something about this guy and something about Vegas. And I'm a big believer in things happen for a reason. It was one of those moments when I went away and went.

Chad Sowash (26:37.711)

Mm -hmm.

Nicki Paterson (26:48.072)

I'm gonna go there. I was dating somebody at the time and that was gone. That was finished in my mind at that point in time. It was like, I'm going, how do I make this happen? And their offer was slightly below a full ride. But within a couple of days, I was like, look, I've got six full ride offers here. If you wanna make this happen, let's go. But again, I was so oblivious. I thought everyone was on a full ride. So when I got there, it was a wake up call because you go from livelihood,

Chad Sowash (27:11.151)

-huh.

Nicki Paterson (27:17.512)

to living and breathing it, to mixing the schooling and the playing. But also I'm looking at some out of shape seniors and I'm going, they're telling me to shag the balls and stuff and I'm going, what would you just say there? And again, I just couldn't, I was just like, I'm a big on accountability and I'm thinking, if you're not pulling your weight, I'm gonna tell you and I expect you to tell me as well. And I brought this professional level in and they just were not ready for that at the beginning.

Brian Johnson (27:30.882)

yeah.

Nicki Paterson (27:47.528)

So probably the worst thing that happened was a coach that was there for 21 years actually got sacked during my first season, but it was always on the cards. So I think he brought me, he brought one guy from England and he'd been at Arsenal before, I'd been in the Premier League in Scotland and stuff. And I think that was his last saving bet to save his job. But the best thing that ever happened then was the Portuguese coach that came in after that. So.

Brian Johnson (28:16.93)

Wow, that's a great story.

Chad Sowash (28:19.535)

Those Portuguese know a little bit of football. They know a little bit of football. So let's, I mean, you played for so many teams and you stayed in the US for how many years? I mean, and one of those teams, by the way, Brian Johnson was the Indy 11, just so that you know. But how long were you in and what was that whole process? Because I mean, it looks like you were changing your location more than somebody who was in the military, for God sakes.

Nicki Paterson (28:23.4)

definitely.

Nicki Paterson (28:48.936)

I've had more clubs than Tiger Woods, my dad used to say. It was interesting. I mean, I was probably five years too early in the States to have had a different type of career. So for me, being at UNLV, we were 30th in the nation, 35th in the nation, right? You were always playing teams that were better than you.

Chad Sowash (28:50.799)

Ha ha ha!

Chad Sowash (29:02.415)

Mm -hmm.

Nicki Paterson (29:13.896)

It was tough to stand out. What's really interesting is five out of my starting 11 of university have all went on to play MLS and three are MLS coaches right now. So we were actually quite shit when I look at results just now. But when I look back ago, you know, there was a good foundation there and we probably should have done better and wow, look how good some of these guys have done. But I think for me, it was just getting into the pro. I mean, I think, you know, my first two years in UNLV, I enjoyed it.

I probably lowered my expectation of where my career was going. And it was really junior year and this new coach that came in that was like, you've got a chance, don't piss away. And I thought I can either see it my time here in Vegas and go back to Scotland and what happens happens or I can make a go of this. And it was just after Beckham had come. So there was the profile just raised. But the money in football at that point was really terrible. Some guys are making 15 and 20k. You know, that was the number.

Chad Sowash (30:04.815)

Yeah.

Nicki Paterson (30:12.232)

So it was just getting in, just getting kind of drafted into the ecosystem. So it was DC, then it was Austin, Texas, and a really, a couple of good years. Then Charleston, South Carolina was our home. Charleston Battery, they had the first soccer specific stadium. And that for me was the first place that felt like home. The fan base, it was an amazing place, amazing pitch at the stadium. It had $3 million of memorabilia in the stadium, you know, sign ball. It just...

Chad Sowash (30:40.335)

huh.

Nicki Paterson (30:41.928)

It was home for me and I had it off there quick. We got into the playoffs first year, we won it the second year. You know, I was teams of the year. It just, things really picked up pace quickly. And then the next year I was picked up by Red Bulls, New York Red Bulls and MLS and spent six or seven months there with some of the top players in the world. Terion Rhee, Tim Cahill, Rafa Marquez from Mexico, et cetera. That, again, that was me feeling like I'm where I should be.

at that point and very unfortunately they had won foreign spot and it was between me and Kaká's brother to get that spot and they actually went with Kaká's brother, they kept me there, they were again, they were paying me just to stay and not go anywhere else, they own my rights, I couldn't go anywhere, the rules were kind of weird and I loved it there. He got injured after a week and I couldn't play because I wasn't signed and then...

Again, coach fired end of the season. I did preseason with them again and they ended up signing a guy from PSG in France using my foreign spot. So I ended up back in Charleston. So Charleston to Ottawa, Canada was an amazing move for me. It was the first signing of a brand new franchise. It was still in the North American Soccer League at the time. 30 ,000 seat, a specific stadium. They had the Ottawa Red Blacks and I shared the stadium upstairs. You had a 10 ,000 seat or hockey stadium downstairs.

Chad Sowash (32:01.583)

Mm -hmm.

Nicki Paterson (32:10.312)

just phenomenal set up, but minus 35 outside. So that you had to get to get up with quickly. And things went, I was quite unlucky there. I tore my MCL the day before the regular season started and the first season. So I come back the second half of the season and did okay. I did a really good first half of the season, the second season. And then I tore my ACL the day after I had my first son and a collision with my own goalkeeper. So I'm thinking.

Chad Sowash (32:15.599)

no.

Brian Johnson (32:38.658)

Same, same, ne.

Nicki Paterson (32:40.328)

Same me. So I'm thinking, Jesus Christ, I'm out again. And that was a changing point for me because a light bulb went on that you're not going to do this forever. And don't get me wrong, I was back in five and a half, six months, which was super aggressive. I was totally fine. But the coach was moving to Vancouver, Whitecaps, that was one of those ones where, do we stay here and figure out who the new coach was? My wife is in maternity.

Et cetera. Is she going to work again? Is she not? And then I got offered the two -year contract from Indy through an unbelievable agent at the time. A bigger contract and I'm going, right, okay, they're making a big play here to be successful. And I just, I don't know, I wanted to be part of it. I knew a couple of guys there and I went there and again, we won the regular season championship and stuff like that as well. So a good move from a football perspective, but it was the one area we went to where it was very spread out in terms of...

local guys, new international guys coming in. And usually it's like you're all staying in that complex, you're all staying in that area. And my wife felt distant and, you know, young kid and I'm all over the place and the lure of a big role in HR recruitment back in Scotland kind of pulled her back. And I thought, you know, I've been here for 15 years in total. She's been with me, supporting me in four or five different locations and more Ikea trips than I can ever imagine. It just felt...

It felt like I owed her that coming back. And I think at that point it was 31, 32. My knee was fine at that point. And I thought, you know what, still years ahead of me coming back to Scotland, I can still play at home. And we made the decision to move back at that point. But I had to give up a year, the best year of contract of my career at Indy to move back to Scotland. And that was a tough, tough pill to swallow for quite a while.

Chad Sowash (34:32.367)

I'm sure.

Brian Johnson (34:33.058)

Yeah, the playing on multiple teams, I did that too. That's just kind of the road, I think, with sports in general. But you mentioned North American Soccer League. That's the one I grew up with, right? I grew up, I played soccer for 10 years as a kid. So I was all about the German teams, right? Franz Buchenbauer, Sepp Maier, all them guys, and Pele. So that was my era of, yeah, yeah, exactly, the New York cosmos.

Nicki Paterson (34:56.328)

They were all in the States at one point.

Brian Johnson (35:01.122)

the Oakland Stompers is where I was and, and anyway, but so my question specifically to MLS, right? Cause as I was growing up playing the game, I kind of got tired of it and wouldn't play football later on, American football later on. But there was always this assumption. There was always this most, most popular sport in the world, soccer for us, right?

Most important sport in the world or most popular sport in the world. It's gonna take off. It's gonna take off in America. It just never did. I feel like until now with MLS, this is the first I'm seeing and Messi helped a lot when he came over last year. What is your view of MLS in recent history? Did you feel like it was better than that? Maybe I gave you credit for before and maybe it's not as good as it is now that it seems. What's your, can you give some depth, some perception?

for me as to how to view MLS.

Nicki Paterson (35:58.632)

It was tough for me because I think myself and five or six others at Charleston and that was the USL at the time. You had MLS, you had USL and NASL competing. And I thought there was the top players in USL were equally good if not better than half the players in MLS. But you had the salary caps. So, you know, I could make more money in USL and NASL than MLS. And MLS had, you know, you could only have so many foreigners on a team as well. So not only...

Brian Johnson (36:06.27)

Okay.

Nicki Paterson (36:27.656)

was I restricted by foreign spots, I was restricted by salary cap. And again, it was politics, right? Quite honestly, and not speaking bad of MLS, but the model was bring in young guys and hopefully bring them through to the national team or send them on their way to Europe to get back to the national team. And they would always take a punt on an 18, 20 year old generation, I did this kid over, I tried and tested 25, 27 year old thoroughbred from Scotland or Ireland or England or whatever.

Chad Sowash (36:56.431)

Hahaha.

Brian Johnson (36:57.154)

Thoroughbred, yeah that a baby. I like that term.

Nicki Paterson (36:57.576)

But I'm thinking, who would you rather go to battle with? An 18 -year -old that's not had a shit in the place yet, or a 25 -year -old that's played 300 games that knows how to get it done? Well, I mean, in many cases, yes. I think Beckham for me is the single source of truth.

Brian Johnson (37:10.85)

But the 18 year old is cheaper, right? As far as the team's concerned, is that? Yeah.

Nicki Paterson (37:23.048)

for MLS, getting that franchise for $5 million into his contract and turning that into the, not so much what he'd done for when he was there because Messi's done way more. But if Beckham never got that franchise and he never made that real and he never got all the celebrities to come through his popularity, he's the biggest name and sport in football in my eyes. He changed the game in terms of being that icon and public figure and Spice Girl helped, etc. But -

I think now when you look at Miami, you go, wow, and the franchise fees now are what, 200, 250 million, et cetera. Finally, I mean, I think MLS is on the map the last couple of years. It's getting bigger. It's, you know, the sponsorship, et cetera. I still think there's too many teams that go for the big fancy stadium away out of downtown. You know, when you look at teams like the Seattles and the Atlantis, put it in the right place, you get 30, 40 ,000.

Chad Sowash (38:14.991)

Yeah.

Nicki Paterson (38:21.96)

Crazy fans come to it. And I appreciate not every team can do that. But I think the MLS model is a good one. I think it looks like it's a sustainable one. I think they just need to find that balance between promoting the young guys through and the local guys through versus the stars. I think what's really cool to see is it's not just the two guys from Celtic and the prime of their career, Yakemakis.

Morgan to the top scorers. I'd much rather they were still with Celtic, but they've chosen to go do their lifestyle. It's not just retirees now, I guess, in many ways. So long may that continue.

Chad Sowash (39:00.815)

Mm -hmm.

Brian Johnson (39:03.81)

Yeah, I appreciate that. The way you talk about Beckham showing up and really putting them on the map for me when I was growing up, because I'm a little older than you, that's what Wayne Gretzky did for hockey. Wayne Gretzky comes to Los Angeles. I grew up in California. When he came to Los Angeles, he did exactly what you said Beckham did. Everybody got attention there. He was the man. I never played hockey because Wayne Gretzky didn't show up until I was out of high school, until I was already.

Nicki Paterson (39:14.888)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Johnson (39:32.258)

We didn't have any place to play hockey where I was but aside from that you mentioned Beckham I watched the documentary on him was fascinating and I remember all those days all those times I remember his career and what was going on, but I knew nothing about him as a person Any thoughts on his road and his his walk and how it's affected and benefited many but From a personal standpoint was the documentary accurate is he is he you know?

In your opinion, is he not looking for trash, but just constructive evaluation or look from your perspective as to the person that he is.

Nicki Paterson (40:09.288)

Yeah, good question. I mean, I think first and foremost, you asked me about early soccer memories or football memories. Beckham was one of the guys that was a couple of years older than me that was making it, that was on TV constantly. And he's iconic was the goal from the halfway line, free kicks, they were the two things that stuck out in my mind, two things that I try all the time. So again, you look back and you go, what molded my career? There was probably three or four players that did that and he's one of them.

And I think, I grew up in an era where Manchester United were one and everything. All guys that were all a couple of years younger than me, Wayne Rooney was coming through. We were days apart in terms of age and I'm going, not that I'm doing this in Scotland, but I want to emulate what he's doing at that top level here. I think for me, the documentary was very authentic, super authentic. It got received super well. I probably know people that have.

Chad Sowash (40:47.375)

Yeah.

Nicki Paterson (41:06.024)

played against Becks and stuff like that as you go through. And I think he couldn't go anywhere without a circus around him. So for the most part, he couldn't keep his life private. It just wasn't possible. I thought his wife came across really well as well in that documentary. He's a very family -orientated guy and everything he touches just turns to gold in many ways. But yeah, for me, he's just a cool dude. And I thought the documentary was excellent.

Brian Johnson (41:16.45)

Yeah, sure.

Brian Johnson (41:34.21)

Awesome. That was my interpretation. I'm glad I was accurate. So thank you for that. I appreciate it. You validated. Thank you.

Nicki Paterson (41:40.328)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (41:41.839)

Don't ever think that you're wrong, Brian. I mean, we don't. So let's switch gears a little bit and let's talk about business. So when you have all of that amazing experience and you have that culture and you have that student of the game kind of like thought process, when you come into corporate America,

Brian Johnson (41:45.026)

Hahahaha

Chad Sowash (42:03.247)

Did it shock you? Were you ready for it? What was the experience when you left and came in either to work for Monster .com or whomever?

Nicki Paterson (42:15.912)

It's funny, like, I remember going back to Scotland and thinking to myself, what will I do now? Right? I still had my mind that I'm still going to play. And I realized quite quickly that, you know, you get kind of a tiers of it in Scotland. You get the top level, you get a level underneath it, and then it starts to become part time where people have jobs and play. And actually the jobs in play sometimes make more money than that middle level. And I realized quite quickly that if I want to

you know, that top level, you know, I'm 32 now, I've had an ACL, you know, some of them at that point looked down a little bit on the US football, et cetera. It was almost like, it was like, where am I going to get in here? And, you know, I landed in that kind of middle level and I realized, right, you know, to get the house that my wife wants to get, I need to think about the next stage of the career. So.

Brian Johnson (43:08.898)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (43:09.359)

Hahaha

Nicki Paterson (43:12.328)

I took the job, I had friends that were working at Monster, it was a job board, you know, it was my first, you know, just, it was like a Wolf and Wall Street type job, right? You had a mix of people that had been there forever and you had these young guys coming through, drinking every night, et cetera. And I just thought bashing the phones isn't for me here, you know, what's going to be next. But the combination of that plus the football was making good money. And so it was like, you know, ride it out for a few months. And kind of like meeting the guy from UNLV,

Chad Sowash (43:21.071)

Mm -hmm.

Nicki Paterson (43:41.896)

I met the owner of Solutions Driven and him and his dad, it's a family -run organization, global recruitment company, headquartered here in Scotland, but they also owned a soccer team here in Scotland. So that's kind of how the correlation landed. So again, things happening for a reason. And just had it off with this guy straight away. And I went back to my wife and I said, thinking about moving into actual recruitment. And she's like,

Chad Sowash (44:01.743)

huh.

Nicki Paterson (44:11.016)

you're not moving into recruitment. She'd done that for forever. And she said, you'll hate it. No accountability. All the reasons why no one likes recruitment. And I said, look, there's something about this guy and it's going to be better than Monster. No offense, Monster. But right from day one, there was just, you know, principles, there was accountability, there was, there was just a maturity within this company and a kind of a...

Almost because my wife had put all these bad things in my head and I just seen them all to be different. I'm like this company values partnerships, you know, like Value add they want to do things better. They're investing they're talking about L &D. I'm thinking they just did things differently and It just It's interesting you mentioned I've been in all these clubs, you know I just did my seven -year anniversary with Solutions Driven last week and I'm sitting going to myself

where is that time went. You know, so I've now seen myself as a veteran in the recruitment game in many ways. And, you know, there's been obviously a loyalness from me to this company, but I genuinely just couldn't see myself anywhere else at this moment in time. Moving into the corporate world, my role within the business was we were a Scottish headquartered company that worked with 70 % US multinationals that were moving east. So, you know, a US company in any industry moving into Europe, moving into...

to Asia, et cetera, we could do that. We could do that in spades for those guys, whether it was one -off exact leadership or whether it was kind of an embedded scale. And as soon as you do a good job anywhere, good news travels fast, bad news faster. It was almost, wait a minute, you charge the same rate globally? Can you do it in the US? Yeah, we can do it in the US. And we'd only done a bit when I joined. And I felt, and speaking to this, to Gavin, my boss, it was almost, let me out the US.

Chad Sowash (45:46.255)

Mm -hmm.

Nicki Paterson (46:07.976)

Like I think I could go and grow that. And that's exactly what happened. The US is now our biggest market. And we've now got an ability and I guess a luxury of being able to hire anywhere. But for me, you talk about hiring, you talk about scalability. I found this niche, I found this job quite simple. I found...

Chad Sowash (46:20.751)

Yeah.

Nicki Paterson (46:33.512)

I was very lucky to have a company that was good, first and foremost, and delivered and delivered well, et cetera, because you need that. But if you've got good people and good market fit, I think you can almost do anything. And add to that my knowledge of being in the US and being a pro and different things as well. Just add that all together. It was, obviously you can see I don't mind talking either. So it was very easy to just find those commonalities with people or a level where.

If you've got a recruitment level, great. If you've got a personal level, great. If you've got a sports level, great. And it just seemed to have worked really, really well. And the last seven years have absolutely flown by.

Chad Sowash (47:12.943)

Well, and I'm sure you know already that Americans love a good accent. And the Scots, the Scots have a great accent, depending on how thick it is. You don't have that thick of a Scottish accent. So as you'd said, you're currently chief growth officer at Solutions Driven. You've been there for seven years now. It's freaking awesome. When you're hiring new team members, what are you looking for? I mean, because again,

Brian Johnson (47:17.57)

Hahaha!

Hehehehehe

Chad Sowash (47:36.399)

You take a look at the sports community versus the corporate community and there's the team. And then we talk a lot about team in corporate America, but it's really just a bunch of individuals. What do you look for to be able to create those teams or is it entirely different?

Nicki Paterson (47:55.304)

And I'd say that's really evolved over the last few years. I moved from an individual contributor to a team lead within seven or eight months. And everybody that had been here had been there for years before. So that kind of, I could have went sideways really, really quickly. So I needed to get that team onside fast. And I had to call upon everything that allowed me to pull a football team together quickly in my career to make that happen. I think the accountability that...

Chad Sowash (47:58.927)

Mm.

Nicki Paterson (48:24.04)

What can I do for you? Where can I help? How can I support? How can I lay one on a plate for you? I can't just score goals here, I need to assist to make this work. But just being totally honest always, overly transparent at times, fixing things that piss them off, whatever it may be. That's how we got it onside quickly. And again,

I think there's so many correlations between the soft skills of professional athletes to business. But I also think what makes people successful, the correlations are there. You know, I used to hear about sales kick -offs all the time. Two years ago I had a sales tee -off because I remember of my team that was a scratch golfer. And I thought, you know, when I look at this business, we're all individuals. But a golfer is a swing coach, a puttting coach, a masseuse. You know, every year it starts at zero. Everybody's trying to be the FedEx champion.

Chad Sowash (48:55.631)

Mm -hmm.

Chad Sowash (49:03.087)

Yeah.

Nicki Paterson (49:18.92)

But sometimes you have a Ryder Cup, et cetera, et cetera. So I used all those analogies to say, how do we get a little bit better through the year? Whether it be tools, golf clubs, whether it be process, swing, et cetera. Like almost how do we, and it just really hit home with the guys. And then we went to Topgolf, which is American as it gets. And really just that sunk home to me, I think, in the early days when we were looking to hire, like most, you know,

immature leaders, you look for replicas of yourself and I'm like, I'm not going to find that. You know, for a while I was, let me look for some sports people, et cetera, and a couple of things worked, a couple of things didn't. I think for me, you know, if I look back, Brian, you maybe think the same. Early in my career, everybody worked their ass off, everyone. And...

Chad Sowash (50:08.911)

Hmm.

Nicki Paterson (50:10.888)

work rate was a non -negotiable and the skill was the differentiator in many ways and sometimes there was some luck there. Now you don't have that same level of kids playing, you don't have that same level of drive, there's entitlement everywhere, but the people that make it are still the people that work their ass off. I don't think anybody's ever got anywhere in sport or business without working really hard and that for me, guts...

It guts me to see that it isn't at that same level as it once was when I was younger. And I think interviewing deeper has got better results. And I think for us, we've always tried to be a lean team and really invest in the team that we have here. That if anybody ever comes in, they're like, I need to get on these guys level quickly. Rather than the mass, let's hire 10 people in one, one makes it, the SDR model, et cetera. And I think that's proved.

Chad Sowash (50:55.887)

Mm -hmm.

Nicki Paterson (51:08.104)

to what really will for us.

Chad Sowash (51:09.871)

One of the things I've noticed in corporate America is that we don't have students of the game, whatever game that we have. And you were talking about watching film, right? Watching film is, I mean, it's everything. You're watching yourself, you're watching your opponent. But we don't have students of the game per se. We get people who are really good at stuff and we don't really push the, you know, the, the constant education, right? Around whatever landscape or industry you're in. So,

Is that something that you had to institute within Solutions Driven? Was that something that you brought? Is it something that's continual?

Nicki Paterson (51:47.304)

Yeah, I mean, so we use a tool called Gong, G -O -N -G, you know, Gong joins your call, records it, you talk too much, you don't ask enough questions. For me, I'd say I'm by passion. I am so passionate about this and I feel like I could talk people into it. But I had to learn very quickly that, you know, the more they talk, the more things you've got at your disposal, the more you can learn about yourself, your offering, et cetera. So absolutely that. I think the other part for us was as well as just you're kind of a...

Chad Sowash (51:50.495)

yeah.

Chad Sowash (52:11.695)

Mm -hmm.

Nicki Paterson (52:17.192)

calls, get out and get in front of clients. That was the biggest thing for me. What do you like about us? What do you not? What do you like about the industry? What do you not? It's that authenticity I think really sets us apart. And for me, I've learned so much. I try and drive everything in my role. Some sales, marketing, customer success, commercial. I drive it all by customer. You tell us what you want and solution driven by name and nature, we'll go figure it out for you. And if we can't do it, we can't do it. And for me, if you lead by customer,

Chad Sowash (52:37.839)

Mm -hmm.

Nicki Paterson (52:47.176)

you can't go wrong. But for that, you need a higher level of trust and buy in from your execs and you don't always get that. I've been so lucky here that, you know, the bosses of this business have given me a lot of autonomy, support to try things, to fail. And you don't always get that. And luckily for us, it's really worked out. But data is the biggest thing. Data is the biggest thing.

Chad Sowash (52:52.367)

Yeah.

Brian Johnson (53:10.018)

Yeah, data is big. I love how you mentioned earlier interviewing deeper. I think that's really a key thing. I found the biggest challenge when I became a leader was the hiring and firing, right? Letting someone go or hiring somebody. Did you have challenges with that too? Or was it just me?

Nicki Paterson (53:29.544)

No, I mean, I think there's a COVID, for example, right? We just decided to ramp up the sales team and COVID happened and we had to let four or five people go because we just knew they weren't ramping at that point. They weren't going to get there and all of a sudden they're going to be in their homes, you know, fending for themselves. We haven't worked remote that way before, et cetera, et cetera. We had to grow up as an organization super, super quickly then. And, you know, we learned to go remote really quickly. We have people all over the world. So we've figured that out.

But you hear it all the time. If you're hiring a salesperson and you just interview them, they seem like a decent guy, she looks good, et cetera. If you don't hear them make a call or a dummy play, I guarantee when they get into it, you go, you've just heard them for the first time and you go, my God. Do that in the interview and don't hire them, right? I mean, that's just not rocket science for me. Set yourselves up for success and involve.

Chad Sowash (54:18.991)

Yeah.

Nicki Paterson (54:24.648)

more people than just yourself. I think that was the big thing for me. Make it a good process for them, a good experience, but get four or five opinions of peers in and around you where they say, I need to work with that person. I can see myself working with that person. You know, they ask, come at it from different angles and almost make decisions as a team and that teamwork you mentioned earlier, Chad, has been great for us. But also that's what we're telling our clients as well. Here's all the things that make you good at hiring.

Like this Thursday, for example, we've got an H1 Insights for one hour where we're just going to tell everyone, like, you know, we've interviewed 70 clients, you know, a couple of hundred prospects this year, done all these, you know, data stats and white papers. We're going to share it with you of what's working, what's not, best practice, what's not. And if we're not practicing what we preach, then what's the point?

Chad Sowash (55:13.583)

Yeah, there's no better way to wrap this up my friend. That's Nicki Patterson. We've got, yeah, that's right. Scottish footballer and also chief growth officer at Solutions Driven. Nicki, if somebody wants to connect with you, where would you send them?

Brian Johnson (55:27.81)

Where are those people come from?

Nicki Paterson (55:35.208)

I mean, probably LinkedIn. Nicky Patterson is probably the best place if it's business. Instagram, Twitter, it's usually Nicky Patterson, number eight. I'm obsessed by number eight. So it's always been the number. But corporate America, right? You wear the long sleeves. And now my son's obsessed by number eight as well. But yeah, very easy to get a hold of and always more than happy to talk talent, hiring, recruitment with anyone. It's funny, I think...

Chad Sowash (55:37.551)

Okay.

Chad Sowash (55:47.119)

There it is.

Nicki Paterson (56:05.288)

You never think you're going to be as passionate about your next job after you've been in pro sports. And I'm probably more passionate about this now, which is totally crazy.

Chad Sowash (56:10.991)

huh.

Chad Sowash (56:15.503)

Well, something that you're also very passionate about, I know, is it's time for you to go get some chippy. So.

Nicki Paterson (56:21.416)

yeah.

The physique isn't the same as what it once was, Chad, that's for sure.

Chad Sowash (56:27.183)

Excellent mail. We appreciate it. And again, I can't wait to talk to you again soon. Brian, we're out of here, man. Later. Okay. Hang.

Nicki Paterson (56:35.368)

Thank you both, I've enjoyed it. Thanks so much. Nice to meet you, man. Cheers, guys.

Brian Johnson (56:36.514)

Thanks, Nicky. Appreciate you.