Chasing Jeff Pearlman

Chad (00:03.985)
have headphones on so every time we speak it echoes in his room.

Jasper (00:07.941)
and

Chad (00:12.421)
He looks at me like, really? Yeah, that's what's happening.

Jeff Pearlman IV (00:15.322)
I don't have good speaker headphones, but I have AirPods.

Chad (00:18.501)
Okay, if that works. Okay.

Jasper (00:18.593)
Yeah, that works.

Jeff Pearlman IV (00:19.886)
Yeah, hold on one sec.

Brian Johnson (00:20.878)
I look cool too. Good for your look.

Chad (00:23.913)
You're good for your love.

Jasper (00:27.782)
Hehe

Chad (00:28.809)
Oh, yeah. You don't know how many guys are like, really? Is that what's happening? It's like, no, that's exactly what's happening.

Jasper (00:34.478)
Really?

Brian Johnson (00:38.146)
Yeah, that's interesting. I'm glad you're the tech guy too.

Chad (00:41.885)
Like I said, 1,200 plus episodes in. I've done this a couple of times.

Jasper (00:44.354)
Yeah, you'd better get this right by them by now because

Chad (00:49.477)
Oh dude, you don't know how many Silicon Valley CEOs we talk to, tech CEOs. Oh, it's horrible. They've got horrible bandwidth. They don't, it's like, seriously, tech is your job. Let's do this. I get Brian Johnson. I mean, he's a baseball player for God's sakes.

Jasper (00:51.345)
I know though. I know. Yeah. They haven't got a clue.

Jasper (01:04.077)
Hmm

Jasper (01:09.169)
Yeah, but yeah, one for two today. One strike eight.

Chad (01:15.953)
Oh man, it's getting dark over there, Jasper. This is like 8, 8.30.

Jeff Pearlman IV (01:20.742)
All right.

Jasper (01:20.801)
I know, yeah, 8 o'clock, the sun is disappearing, so yeah.

Chad (01:25.589)
There you are, Jeff. Right, yeah, go down to the bottom. Yeah, click on your. He's got it. He's a pro.

Jeff Pearlman IV (01:34.541)
not great.

Chad (01:43.573)
should be able to click on speakers at the bottom of the.

Jeff Pearlman IV (01:48.598)
Oh, yeah. OK.

Jasper (01:51.257)
Can you hear us okay?

Chad (01:52.33)
Hello?

Jeff Pearlman IV (01:54.106)
Can you hear me?

Jasper (01:54.349)
Perfect.

Brian Johnson (01:55.756)
Jeff, the Tupac book is number 11 or number 10?

Jeff Pearlman IV (01:59.119)
Number 11.

Jasper (02:04.395)
11 more than me.

Jeff Pearlman IV (02:08.518)
have a much more enjoyable and sane life.

Chad (02:12.053)
Oh, we'll get into that. We'll get into that. Okay, here we go, Brian. We're already recording. So thank God for editors. And here we go.

Jasper (02:15.612)
Okay, press pause, yeah.

Brian Johnson (02:46.062)
All right, welcome to Challenge Hasing everybody. We have a special guest for you today. His name is Jeff Perlman, writer extraordinaire, former sports writer for Sports Illustrated, has written 10 books, is working on his 11th book. We'll get into more of those different books in a minute. From New York, graduated from University of Delaware. One of the most impactful writers that we have seen, sports writers in our time. He's gonna get embarrassed from me saying that.

But a friend and friend of the show, we welcome Jeff Perlman. Welcome to the show, Jeff.

Jeff Pearlman IV (03:21.914)
I appreciate that, thank you.

Jasper (03:23.493)
Thanks for watching!

Brian Johnson (03:24.138)
And I mean that wholeheartedly because the depth and breadth of what you've written about, four time New York Times bestseller, I mean, what you've done is incredible. First question off the bat is, which of these 10 books is your favorite?

Jeff Pearlman IV (03:45.451)
The most meaningful book would probably be my Walter Payton biography. I just I grew up

Brian Johnson (03:50.83)
Chad, you still have the music on.

Chad (03:52.617)
sweetness.

Brian Johnson (03:54.292)
Chad, you still have the music going.

Chad (03:55.517)
and I was going, it's a long music bed.

Brian Johnson (03:57.494)
Yeah, sorry. Go ahead, Jeff. Sorry.

Jasper (03:57.672)
Yeah, it's way too long. Yeah.

Jeff Pearlman IV (03:59.302)
I was jamming. No, I'd say the most meaningful book, most meaningful book was Walter Payton, it's called Sweetness. I was a huge fan of his as a kid. It was the hardest book I've ever written probably. I felt he was an iconic figure who deserved this sort of big treatment and never got it. And it wiped me out, it was really hard. Now I'm working on a Tupac book, which I think will replace that as far as the most, a hard, definitely the hardest book I've ever worked on. But they all, I know it sounds corny and cliche, they all become your babies a little bit.

Jasper (04:15.374)
Hmm.

Chad (04:20.597)
Wow.

Jasper (04:29.999)
Hmm.

Brian Johnson (04:30.058)
Yeah, sure, sure.

Jeff Pearlman IV (04:30.095)
you know.

Chad (04:33.085)
So why did it take such a toll on you? I know he was iconic figure, but why did it take such a toll?

Jeff Pearlman IV (04:40.706)
I mean, a big part of it, where you have a question, is it bad that I hear myself or not, I mean, do. Do you guys not? If you don't, it's fine, I'm just asking.

Jasper (04:48.485)
It's okay. No, it's fine. I think you're odd.

Brian Johnson (04:49.666)
Sound looks fine to me, but you look fuzzy.

Chad (04:49.917)
It should be good. Yeah, don't worry about that. That's all local stuff. It'll be good.

Jeff Pearlman IV (04:54.99)
I look great. The thing is about books is you put everything you have into them, everything you have into them, and you spend two, two and a half, three years, and all you wanna do, you become hyper obsessed with the subject to the point where all you think about is that subject. And Walter Payton, when I got into it, I remember early on working on that book, and I met his brother Eddie, who at the time was a golf coach at Jackson State, Eddie Payton.

Jasper (05:15.021)
Hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (05:23.554)
And I said to him early on, I was like, is your brother just as great as everyone says? Something like that. And he's like, well, we're all human. And it was true. Like it was true. He had a kid out of wedlock who he cared for financially, but had nothing to do with, even though he lived a couple of miles away. He was an unfaithful husband to his wife, Connie. At the end of his life in particular, he had this really sad existence of depression. I would...

Jasper (05:32.514)
Hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (05:52.646)
I bet my life that he suffers DTE because a lot of depression, suicidal thoughts. And people, when people have this sort of, what we do is we take these figures and we make them idols. And when you dig into someone's life, which is a job of biography, you find out, oh, they're human beings. They actually have flaws. And that's what makes them interesting, but it doesn't make it easy to always dig into. Sometimes it can be very painful.

Jasper (05:58.541)
Hmm.

Brian Johnson (06:18.382)
Yeah, absolutely. And I know you get a lot of pushback from people because you write the truth, right? You were, you're very honest with your writing and you get a lot of pushback from families, I'm sure. And I want to get into details of which families, whatever, but how do you handle that criticism from people who are close to the book that, that may be refused to be interviewed? How, I mean, how do you deal with that? Do you, as a biographer, you got to feel like the public has a right to know.

But as a writer, there's got to be some compassion for putting their stuff out there. How do you balance that?

Chad (06:51.049)
or even subjects of the book, right?

Jasper (06:54.136)
Alright.

Jeff Pearlman IV (06:54.638)
Yeah, I don't have a perfect answer and there's no perfect solution. Like people, you're not a robot and the people you're writing about aren't robots either. And I always feel like it's a very, like we all, whatever you do, you wind up justifying your existence. Like I've talked to Brian a lot about baseball in the 90s. I'm like, guys who are using steroids justified their existence for doing so, right? Well, everyone else is doing it or well, blah, blah. I gotta feed my family. Like we all justify. And I think biography is no different.

Jasper (07:02.489)
Hmm.

Jasper (07:14.287)
Hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (07:24.982)
As an example, Walter Payton, his family was, they didn't do anything wrong. Like his kids didn't do anything wrong. And you're putting this book out and you're writing a lot about someone and it's unflattering stuff and he's not even alive anymore. So who has to deal with it? His kids and his ex-wife and his family members. And it's sometimes it's hard to justify, why are you doing that? But then on the other hand, I view these books as historical, it might be like a little bit haughty, but like as historical documents. And Walter Payton,

Jasper (07:32.025)
Hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (07:54.782)
is a historic figure in American sports and therefore in American pop culture and therefore in America. And if you're gonna write about people, I think you have to be accurate, you have to be honest, you have to discuss their flaws, how they impacted them. I mean, I think in a lot of ways, I walked away from sweetness, feeling better about Walter Payton because I saw the demons he had to deal with. And through it all, he always wanted to make people feel good. He always wanted to give people this illusion that he was this thing. And that has to be torture to deal with. And in a way, it makes him more courageous and more heroic.

Jasper (08:14.797)
Hmm

Jeff Pearlman IV (08:24.622)
but it doesn't make it easier for his kids. So it sucks. It's not fun. And getting backlash sucks. It's not fun. I never loved the call from the angry relative. I never loved the call from the angry subject. Why'd you do that? What the hell? Why would you do that? I'll tell you something funny. Is former teammate of yours, Brian, Sean Estes, former pitcher with the Giants. I wrote a story years ago for Sports Illustrated about Barry Bonds and Sean criticized Barry when I interviewed him. And I used a quote.

Brian Johnson (08:27.234)
Yeah, I love that.

Jasper (08:29.869)
Getting bad last shot.

Brian Johnson (08:44.49)
Yeah.

Jasper (08:54.181)
Hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (08:55.766)
Article comes out, couple of days later, I get a call from Sean Estes, angry at me. You misquoted me, I never said that about Barry, blah, blah. I'm like, oh my God. Years later, I see Sean Estes on Facebook, and I DM him. And I'm like, hey, I don't know if you remember me, but blah, I probably did you wrong, I really didn't mean to. He wrote me back and said, no, I called you because I got nervous, because Barry was giving me grief. You didn't do anything wrong, I said it, you didn't. And like.

Jasper (09:20.706)
Mmm. Right.

Jeff Pearlman IV (09:22.85)
On the one hand, I'm like, what the hell are you? Why you threw me under the bus? And on the other hand, I understand it. Like I get it, we're all human and like, it's scary and life is scary, so.

Brian Johnson (09:25.482)
Right? Right.

Brian Johnson (09:33.122)
Yeah, no, great point. And I'm glad you got to see that part of Sean. His personality compared to, he's a young guy, a little bit shy, left-handed starting pitcher, very dominated the locker room. I can see the fear from his standpoint. So, I get it. I wanna bounce around a little bit. Let's go to the TV show, Winning Time, The Rise of the Lakers. The similar time period, Magic Johnson comes out with his own.

film about that time, right? And I remember you and I talking about this, that I just really appreciate you as a writer, me showing every side of the athlete and therefore the player. But when you get, when you're all, you know, we get so infatuated with the athletes, right, with the stars, with what they have to say, they're not really that interesting, honestly, when they tell a story, they're really good at their sport or their, their skill or their craft.

Jasper (10:15.501)
Hmm.

Jasper (10:27.673)
Yeah.

Brian Johnson (10:30.198)
But that doesn't make them a great writer. But you being a great writer telling the whole story, how do you feel about that whole thing where there was criticism like, oh, well, you weren't there because blah, blah. And so you're telling the story as a biographer in the book that soon became an HBO docu drama. Tell me about that dynamic.

Jeff Pearlman IV (10:51.334)
All right, so the book I wrote, Showtime, was the basis for the TV show. And I'm not just saying that, Showtime is the rare book where I don't think anyone I wrote about actually criticized the book. So I didn't get any criticism from the player. So there's no blood in my hands about the book. Now, the TV show comes out and it's a dramatic, it's a dramatic interpretation of the book. And obviously they weren't in the locker room and you exaggerate a lot of things and blah, blah. And there were things about the show I didn't love. Like I thought,

Jasper (11:08.643)
Whatever. My hand, not the body.

Jeff Pearlman IV (11:21.442)
I thought Paul Westhead came out looking way more doofy than he actually was. Like that guy was a smart man and a good coach. I didn't love that portrayal. It is interesting. Like there's a thing writers say that athletes would hate, which is we can say it better than you can, right? The idea being, and I don't, it doesn't, it sounds arrogant, but I don't actually mean it that way. Like let's say I'm interviewing Brian Johnson Ketcher for the Giants 20 years ago, and you're like,

Jasper (11:27.764)
Hmm.

Jasper (11:34.603)
like there's a writer's day that happens every week.

Jasper (11:40.678)
Hehehehe

Jeff Pearlman IV (11:50.614)
I taught you after game and I say, well, what about that home run? And you're like, well, you know, it was a three, two pitch and blah, blah. It was a fast ball and I hit it over the plane and went left field and I felt great. Well, I see it from my vantage point and I see you jogging around the bases, pointing to your wife or whatever in the stands, pumping your fist, right. Thumping your chest. Being the asshole. Brian Johnson was known to be as a player every day, but I'm saying like you.

Jasper (12:07.877)
Probably my chest. Probably your chest?

Brian Johnson (12:08.83)
So for my chest, putting the peace signs up, right.

That's right.

Jeff Pearlman IV (12:18.286)
You have this observational viewpoint that allows you to almost make it three dimensional. Like Barry Bonds hits a home run, he's gonna say, it is a three, two pitch, what do you want me to tell you? Well, I can see it from afar. I saw what the pitch was, I saw how the pitcher reacted, I saw how the fans reacted, so I can paint this portrait that he can't. So I feel like as a journalist, we are able to sort of show and tell things. I mean, that's our job, you know, we're good with words. We're not good athletes. I mean, except for me.

Jasper (12:28.697)
Yeah.

Chad (12:45.561)
But you're also doing it through interviews, right? So it's not just through that individual's eyes, but the people who were around him. You did experience it, yes, but you have all these other individuals who also experienced it. So, you know, I think we all, you know, want to say, well, it's our life, we see it through our eyes, but how was that experienced all the way around that individual? I mean, that is an amazing perspective that I don't think a lot of people think about.

Jasper (13:08.083)
is an amazing perspective that I don't think a lot of people...

Jeff Pearlman IV (13:12.414)
Oh, I mean, my whole philosophy, the way I always think about these books is just as an example, perfect example, I write the biography of Barry Bonds. I think it's the first time I interviewed Brian at length was for my Barry Bonds biography. I talked to him in Spring-Spring.

Jasper (13:22.234)
and

Brian Johnson (13:24.598)
Yeah, didn't you have a really great guy that you interviewed that was kind of played during that time, that was bald and good looking? Didn't he really help you in that book?

Chad (13:28.131)
I'm sorry.

Jeff Pearlman IV (13:32.962)
Yes, Jeff Kent was amazing, but also Brian Johnson was very helpful. But the thing is like, you know, I slumped Brian Johnson's basically like, please interview me. I'm like, I don't want to interview you. He's like, please interview me. Fine, all right.

Jasper (13:35.781)
Yeah, Chef Ken once said that.

Brian Johnson (13:35.874)
Hahaha!

Brian Johnson (13:48.708)
Yeah

Jasper (13:50.249)
He was like this too at the podcast like please can I be on there yeah.

Brian Johnson (13:52.27)
That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right.

Jeff Pearlman IV (13:54.522)
Like, all right, he paid me 500 bucks. I was like, fine. So the thing, yeah, exactly. So basically what I always say is, so we'll use Brett Favre actually as an example. I write a biography of Brett Favre and he didn't talk for the book. So, all right, well, that's not great. But there were, in his time in Green Bay as an example, there were probably 400 other members of the Packers who were in all the meetings Brett Favre was in.

Brian Johnson (13:58.218)
Right. I want to be one of the 500 that you interviewed because I'm... Yeah.

Jasper (14:09.817)
Yeah.

Jeff Pearlman IV (14:23.898)
There were probably 15 different quarterbacks who were in all the quarterback meetings through the years Brett Favre was in. And one of my guiding principles when I report a book is, like there was probably some free agent running back in camp with the Packers from like Grambling, who might've been there for two weeks. Brett Favre would not remember that guy, John Smith. Brett Favre isn't gonna remember about John Smith, but John Smith is gonna remember the one time maybe his shoe was untied and Brett Favre came along and tied his shoe as a joke or.

Jasper (14:24.598)
Yeah.

Jasper (14:41.625)
Hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (14:52.63)
said something to him. So I just think like you can collect memories and gather recollections and it really becomes a powerful research tool. I mean, Tupac, there are a million people I've interviewed who were he alive, he wouldn't remember. Different Grooties on tour, different rap artists, minor rap artists, et cetera, who he had a profound impact on, even if he was unaware of it.

Jasper (14:58.991)
Hmm.

Jasper (15:15.245)
I mean, it's very interesting to me how you I've read the bread far book. It's somewhere there and it's I think it's very good. I think overall you're a writer that I've really liked. So when Brian mentioned you guys were friends, I was like, that's a good day. But I'm interested to know, because as you recollect these stories, you talk to all these different people. For me, one of the hardest things I find in my job sometimes as a fellow journalist, not sports related, but as a journalist, it's just fact checking.

saying, okay, that's great. Your recollection of that. That's great that you had that idea about a certain moment in history, but that may not be entirely how it's transpired. For you, as you write these books, obviously, with the amount of people that you talk to, the 500 plus people you talk to for the Barry Bonds book, Brian being an obvious one there, but how do you go about checking whether that person is well, not just saying the truth, but is being genuine?

Jeff Pearlman IV (16:13.222)
So that's a great question. Part of it is just raw level research. So let's say I'm interviewing, let's say I'm interviewing so-and-so quarterback and he tells me some story about a game. I'm always gonna go back, read the game, make sure. Oh, I could, like there's a lot, oh, I'll give you a great example, great example. I write this book, my last book was about Bo Jackson. And Bo Jackson has told a story multiple times about when his daughter was born. Brian, I don't know if you've heard this one. They were playing the,

Jasper (16:19.534)
Okay.

Jasper (16:33.87)
Yeah.

Brian Johnson (16:42.39)
I don't think so. I'm locked in.

Jeff Pearlman IV (16:43.714)
He was on, it's crazy. He said, we were playing the Kansas city. I was on the Royals. We were playing the Brewers and I got myself thrown out on purpose so I could leave the ballpark and be there for my door daughter Morgan's birth. And he's told this story repeatedly in detail. We were playing the Brewers. It was this day. Okay. It's a great story. Bo Jackson thrown out of a game to be at the birth of his daughter. I do the base level research.

They weren't playing the Brewers that day, they were playing the Red Sox.

Jasper (17:13.709)
Hahaha

Jeff Pearlman IV (17:15.63)
He, on the day his daughter was born, he was on the 21 day disabled list because he dove that ball that Deion Sanders hit in the gap for the Yankees. So he wasn't even playing that day. All right, then you go deeper. In his entire career, he was thrown out of one game ever. So it's like, what are you talking about? Like that didn't happen, that factually didn't happen. So you do as much as that as you can, right? Now,

Jasper (17:28.534)
Mmm.

Jasper (17:39.473)
Yeah.

Jeff Pearlman IV (17:44.75)
the unfortunate side of it or the reality of it is, you can't fact check everything. If some quarterback, if they're running back from grambling tells me about the time Brett Farr have tied his shoe, I have to kind of believe you. Like there's no documentation of that. And part of reporting is getting something for the first time. In fact, a lot of reporting is getting stuff for the first time. So a lot of times you do have to just trust memories and you hope that the person, and you try to background check the person you're interviewing to make sure they don't have some history of lying, some history of being deceitful.

some motivation for being deceitful. It's definitely an inexact science, but you fact check as much as you can.

Chad (18:20.149)
So how does one go from a job from a food and fashion in Nashville to writing for SI?

Brian Johnson (18:20.494)
So, go ahead.

Brian Johnson (18:29.167)
Hey, that's not the only thing he's written that's unique. Dog Fancy was a great one that I got to be interviewed for that is a trophy on my mantle that I was interviewed for Dog Fancy by Jeff Perlman. Well, when you pay him consistently, he delivers.

Chad (18:31.595)
hahahaha dog fancy

Jasper (18:32.646)
I'm not a fan of the greenwoods.

Jasper (18:43.284)
What haven't you been interviewed for Brian? What have you been? Would you be in my video?

Chad (18:45.969)
Oh god.

Jeff Pearlman IV (18:46.255)
My B.

Chad (18:49.449)
He delivers.

Jeff Pearlman IV (18:50.818)
There are at least, I have to say there are probably 10 different articles with Brian Johnson quotes with my byline on it. I mean, y'all are fancy, CNN.com, Sports Illustrated, The Bonds Book, I mean, on and on and on. You need someone, Brian Johnson's your guy. Yeah, I am. Brian Johnson.

Brian Johnson (18:51.18)
Hahaha!

Brian Johnson (18:59.106)
Hahaha!

Jasper (18:59.749)
haha

Brian Johnson (19:06.678)
Yeah, New York Times bestseller, Brian Johnson, is a vital, vital part of that formula.

Jeff Pearlman IV (19:15.001)
Exactly. So basically,

Chad (19:16.762)
This is the Jeff Pearlman show, okay? So let's let Jeff have a little time. So Jeff, once again, because you probably forgot the question by now. Jesus.

Jasper (19:20.334)
haha

Brian Johnson (19:22.115)
HAHA

Jeff Pearlman IV (19:25.57)
Oh, I got it. I remember.

Brian Johnson (19:26.27)
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, my bad. I got carried away, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Jeff Pearlman IV (19:32.034)
I, um, so I started at the national Tennessee in 1994, graduated from Delaware. Really was my only job offer. I had interned there the year before I was a sports writer in college, but they had one opening and it was food and fashion. I didn't know anything about food. I don't know anything about fashion. I still can't cook. I'm still a bad dresser. The fact that this shirt and a hat match with the posters is just pure accident. I don't know anything. And, um, I was really bad.

Jasper (19:50.035)
Hahaha

Jeff Pearlman IV (19:58.35)
Like really bad. And I was a horrible, horrible journalist coming out of college. I was very cocky. I thought I was just this great writer. I didn't listen to advice. The thing is, it's funny because like, every now and then someone would make a reference now, like you're whatever, a great writer, a blah writer, and I don't, I honestly, God, don't see it that way at all. There's so many better writers. The one thing I really learned that I didn't have in Nashville was how to report. Like I was a bad reporter, a terrible reporter.

Jasper (20:26.629)
Hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (20:26.694)
I made so many mistakes. I didn't know how to check names. I wouldn't just blunder after blunder. And what happened to me that saved my career is I was writing for the Tennessean, making one mistake after another, getting reprimanded nonstop. And one day my editor, a woman named Catherine Mayhew, said to me, we're putting you on the cops beat. We're putting you on the police beat, the late night police beat, which meant you sat at a desk with a scanner and you were listening to stuff. And if something came across the scanner that was worthwhile,

Chad (20:27.326)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (20:55.374)
you drive out to the scene. So if there was a murder or shooting or a fire and you drive out. And what they said to me was, who, what, where, when, how, why, period. You don't need to be snazzy. You don't need to entertain us. You don't need to dazzle us with your nonsense writing, just who, what, where, when, how, and why. And that really changed just the facts. And the truth of the matter is, and this is really true, you can be a mediocre wordsmith and an amazing reporter

Chad (21:14.985)
Just the facts, Jeff.

Jasper (21:24.57)
Hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (21:25.794)
And that makes you an amazing wordsmith. You can be an amazing wordsmith and a horrible reporter and you stink. Like that's a reality of journalism. So that changed my life was being put into that position. And from there at the Tennessee and I became a sports writer, covered high school wrestling, put everything I had into high school wrestling and then got hired at Sports Illustrated. So.

Jasper (21:32.495)
Hmm.

Jasper (21:39.333)
Thank you.

Brian Johnson (21:49.469)
That's awesome.

Chad (21:49.533)
Wow, high school wrestling to sports illustrated. I did not see that connection.

Brian Johnson (21:54.05)
Yeah

Jeff Pearlman IV (21:55.542)
Well, my dream was to work for SI. And, um, I'll tell you something that happened in my career. Like, um, when I was in college at Delaware, I was a junior and someone came up with an idea and never did it graduated. So I just thought I would do it. I applied early for the NBA draft as an underclassman. I didn't play college basketball. I played intramurals for Edna's Edibles, but that's it. But I sent a letter. It's true. Edna's Edibles, by the way, was the cafe owned on the facts of life by Edna Garrett.

Jasper (22:12.781)
Hmm.

Brian Johnson (22:17.44)
I'm out.

Jasper (22:17.625)
hahahaha

Jeff Pearlman IV (22:27.267)
I applied early for the draft, sent a letter to the NBA. One day came back to my dorm room. My roommate Paul Hanson goes, Pearl, there's a letter from the NBA. I open it. Dear Mr. Pearlman, as of this date, you are surrendering your eligibility, blah, blah. A few months later, I'm home for like Christmas break. I get a call from the chief of security for the NBA. Is this Jeff Pearlman? Yes. Are you the basketball player at Delaware? Yes. Are you applying for the NBA draft? Yes. We have no idea who you are.

Jasper (22:36.473)
Thanks for watching!

Jeff Pearlman IV (22:54.542)
Do you really?

Brian Johnson (22:54.848)
Hahaha!

Jasper (22:55.733)
haha

Jeff Pearlman IV (22:57.174)
Like, do you really play at Delaware? And I was like, of course I do, I'm a forward at Delaware. And I was literally a forward at Delaware because I did play forward for Edna's Edibles, the intramural runner-ups in 1993. So I do this. I write a story for my college newspaper, it runs, no big deal. I apply to Sports Illustrated and they write me back and they say, we haven't seen enough of you as a sports writer because I was mainly had food and fashion and cops.

Jasper (23:10.649)
Hehehe

Jeff Pearlman IV (23:27.046)
She's like, can you pitch some story ideas? And I pitched a story about a swimmer, a local swimmer, no. I pitched a story about a basketball coach, no. I said, well, I once applied for the NBA draft. She says, write that. And that became my first sports illustrated story. And then I was hired a few months later.

Jasper (23:38.989)
Right now.

Jasper (23:45.209)
That's awesome.

Chad (23:46.736)
That is awesome.

Brian Johnson (23:47.075)
So for the for the young ones that may be listening to this Sports Illustrated was an actual magazine that you buy on the newsstand that before the Internet was like the biggest magazine, sports magazine there was. It came out every week. I got it every week and I had posters on my wall or the covers of it on my wall, like all over. So. That's right. That's right. That's right.

Jasper (23:53.684)
haha

Chad (24:05.702)
Oh yeah.

Chad (24:09.373)
And they were all pictures of Brian Johnson, by the way.

Jasper (24:11.746)
Pfft. Heheheheheheh.

Brian Johnson (24:14.154)
Ricky Henderson, Brian Johnson, you know, a mixture. But let me take you back to your wonderful time when you wrote your piece on John Rocker. Now, I mentioned in the opening how you are an impactful, one of the best sports writers of our era. I don't think there's any argument from anybody that article that you wrote on John Rocker was what catapulted you into writing these exposés about people and just all of their sides, regardless of how pretty or how ugly it may be.

You're going to tell the truth and nothing but the truth. So help you your credentials as a writer. When you were interviewing John Rocker and for those people who don't know about it, John Rocker said some horribly chauvinistic racist, any kind of ism you want to name. John Rocker said it in this interview with Jeff Perlman. Jeff Perlman had the courage to actually write it like he talked about with the Sweetness book. But as you're interviewing John Rocker.

before this, it was a big story, a big thing that came out, because the criticism was on Jeff Herman. That how could this guy, why would this guy write this? All the players, myself included, which I've told Jeff before, I was angry at him because I felt like he broke the trust. A player reveals something about himself, he, a writer, you know, historically had kind of kept that trust and not really made me look too bad. Jeff just told the honest truth.

while you're having the, when you're having the conversations, many of them with John Rocker, when did it hit you that you got to decide, am I going to write this or am I not?

Jeff Pearlman IV (25:48.154)
Well, I felt like I was prepared for it because of the racist rants that Brian Johnson gave me early in my career. And so that really...

Chad (25:56.636)
haha

Jeff Pearlman IV (25:57.222)
Thank you.

Brian Johnson (25:58.588)
You found those? You found those? I thought they were hidden away. I paid for a service to get rid of those off the internet and you found them. Okay. Keep going.

Jasper (25:58.719)
HAHA

Jasper (26:02.693)
I'm sorry.

Jeff Pearlman IV (26:06.431)
Um, I, so basically what happened is it's 1999. I'm a baseball writer at SI young. I was 27 and, um, I covered the Braves and the Mets and NLCS. And the magazine said, why don't you do a piece on this picture, John rocker for the Braves. And you know how it is Brian, like, um,

Playoffs are really hard to get one-on-one time with athletes because there's a million media guys around. So I would get five minutes here, 10 minutes here, two minutes here. I called his parents and I actually wrote a piece for SI, the original piece, I wish I still had it. And it was like this very positive glowing piece about John Rocker, misunderstood guy. And it ended with a scene his mom told me, I think, of his dog dying when he was a kid and John Rocker tears streaming down his face, carrying this dog up the steps of their house, right?

Chad (26:35.177)
Oh yeah.

Jasper (26:48.677)
I'm sorry.

Jeff Pearlman IV (27:00.09)
And I made a mistake. One thing I learned as a journalist with that story is you should never, ever, ever go into a story with a preconceived idea of what you're gonna write. Because I had in my head, this is the story of a guy who's misunderstood, and that's what I wrote. I conformed it to what I thought. The Braves win the NLCS, and then it gets swept by the Yankees in the World Series, and the story never runs. My editor says, why don't you go down to Georgia and freshen it up? I called Joe Sambito.

Jasper (27:11.949)
Hmm

Jasper (27:15.171)
Yeah.

Jeff Pearlman IV (27:29.998)
who is John Rocker's agent. Hey, it's Jeff Farrone. I said, correct. Yeah, yeah, with the Astros. And I call Sam Beato and he's like, oh yeah, you should totally come down. You're gonna love him. He's awesome. I always think like, as an agent, you need to know your client. I'm actually being sincere. Like you need to know your client. This was an agent who did not know his client. 100%. I fly down. He picks me up. We're driving down a road.

Brian Johnson (27:33.89)
Former left-handed reliever, great pitcher.

Jasper (27:51.137)
Yeah.

Chad (27:51.996)
Yes.

Jeff Pearlman IV (27:58.662)
There's a car in front of us that's driving very slowly. Rocker goes to me, fucking Asian women can't drive. They can't fucking drive. And we passed the car and it's a white guy driving the car, which was the greatest moment ever. It's literally a white man driving the car. We get, we get to a toll booth.

Brian Johnson (28:15.31)
Yeah.

Jeff Pearlman IV (28:22.278)
You get to a toll booth, and it's one of those with a basket. We throw the change in. He throws some change in, doesn't open. Throw some more change in, doesn't open. Guy behind him starts honking. Rocker rolls down the window, sticks out his middle finger, and goes, F you! Then he hucks a loo down the toll booth. We're driving. It has been arranged that John Rocker will be, I will be accompanying John Rocker as he speaks to a group of disadvantaged kids at a school. We go to the school. I'm driving with John Rocker. I'm like, do you enjoy doing these things?

I mean, like it's a softball question for John Rock.

Jasper (28:54.994)
Yeah, yeah, very much so.

Jeff Pearlman IV (28:57.29)
Nah, man, I hate doing this shit, but my agent wants me to do it, blah, blah. I'm like, we get to the school. John Rocker's entrance song with the Braves was I Wanna Rock by Twisted Sister. They play the song, it comes out, everyone loves John Rocker. We're leaving the school. He steals the Twisted Sister CD, literally takes it as we're leaving and pockets it and walks out. We go to lunch, we're at a strip mall. This to me was the moment where I realized, I swear to God, this was really the moment.

Jasper (29:09.002)
Ehh

Jeff Pearlman IV (29:26.298)
We're at a strip mall, he's walking in front of me, we're getting lunch. He drops a pen and I pick up this pen, I'm like, hey, you dropped this. And he goes, no, man, I meant to do that. And I remember thinking like.

You, you just, you're done with your pen. So you just drop it. Like that's who you are. You literally just dropped your pen on the ground because you were done with the pen. I just remember being blown away. He called a black teammate a fat monkey. He talked about queers on the seven train in New York city with a, and like, again, also know your audience. And I know this shouldn't matter, but like liberal Jewish New Yorker, maybe not the guy to be saying this shit to. I know you think we're two white guys in a car, but not all of us think alike, buddy.

Jasper (29:47.082)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jasper (30:06.76)
Yeah.

Chad (30:07.578)
Yeah!

Jeff Pearlman IV (30:11.03)
And like, it was crazy. I'm sitting there and I had a notepad out at a tape recorder going. He knew as an interview. At one point he told me something off the record, which was the crazy thing is all these wild things he says and his off the record thing was a, was a mild criticism of Bobby Valentine's managerial skills. Like it was like, wow, that's a big one there, Johnny. Um, and you know, the story comes out and blows up and goes viral, pre viral and he gets suspended. And.

Jasper (30:19.317)
Ahem.

Brian Johnson (30:24.)
Hahaha!

Jasper (30:25.146)
Hahaha

Jasper (30:33.741)
I'm sorry.

Jeff Pearlman IV (30:40.058)
Demoted and fined and he's a pariah and will ferrell's mook spoofing him on SNL and it's never been the same for old john big ups

Jasper (30:43.627)
Yeah.

Jasper (30:49.981)
I mean, it's fascinating to me though. I'm a documentary maker myself, so I've spent numerous days just following people around that I didn't quite know and I fully agree with you. I had a sort of preconceived idea as to who they were. It's based on doing research, finding as much to talk to. But at the end of the day, I wanted to do a documentary on my favorite footballer growing up. Michael Owen is his name. He used to be a striker for England.

And he's an analyst now and to be honest, he's quite boring. Um, but a friend, a friend, he is no, honestly, great guy. And I seem, seems nice enough guy, but, but a friend came up to me, he said, like, but are you aware of what you're going to do to yourself? And I was like, what am I going to do to myself? He's like, you're probably going to crush any idea that you had of him because he's going to end up not being your hero anymore. Um, never meet your heroes. Um, and that's been something I've been thinking about constantly as I'm

Chad (31:39.401)
Yeah. Never meet your heroes.

Jeff Pearlman IV (31:41.644)
years.

Jasper (31:45.901)
depicting people or portraying people in either an article or a series or whatever. Um, but how do you look at that? And, and have there any, have there been any heroes? Well, John Rocker clearly weren't your hero, but at least not afterwards. Um, have there been any times where you went, you know, this isn't what I'm going to sign up for because as a writer, you, you hold so much power in the way that people are going to view people afterwards. Um,

just loading up on questions here. But are there any people, firstly, are there any people that you viewed as your hero or your childhood hero, so to speak, that really disappointed you? If so, why?

Jeff Pearlman IV (32:28.11)
No, my favorite baseball player as a kid, by far hands down was Ken Griffey Sr. And I remember I was in the Reds clubhouse. I never got nervous about anybody. And I remember I was in the Reds clubhouse during spring training and they had a writer named Hal McCoy. And I was just talking to Hal McCoy and I said, I said, yeah, when I was a kid, my favorite player was Griffey. I was all about Griffey Sr. And he was like, hey Ken, come over here. And senior was in the room, I didn't even know he was in the room. And he's like,

Jasper (32:34.219)
Okay.

Jasper (32:50.574)
Hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (32:56.806)
How goes, hey Ken, this guy is like, he was your biggest fan, this is Jeff Roman. And Griffey was nice and I was like, er, you know, like whatever. I think what you learn doing this job, well number one, I always tell people, like you'll meet sports fans who want to be sports journalists. And I'm always like, do you want to stay a sports fan? Then don't do this job. Like you can't, you don't root for teams, you set it aside. In fact, I actually get annoyed at journalists who say,

Jasper (33:13.7)
Mm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (33:24.334)
look, there's nothing wrong with rooting for a team or look, blah, blah. To me, it's not hard. I grew up rooting for teams. I grew up rooting for players. Once I became a journalist, once I was covering baseball, it stopped. I just turned it off, literally off, no more. That's just how it is. And people will disappoint you. People just disappoint you. It's just a reality of it all. And you just deal with it. We're all human. You go into a clubhouse, you see guys farting and burping and cursing and saying racist things and treating women certain ways.

Jasper (33:28.79)
I agree, yeah.

Jeff Pearlman IV (33:54.446)
You just do, it's just a reality of it. You know, like the number of, this is not including Brian, but the number of professional athletes who probably cheated on their wives was insanely high. You know, like, it is what it is, you know? Like, it just is what it is. And if you grow up, I just, at this point, I don't really have any heroes because it doesn't mean I don't admire people, but like, you just know everyone's flawed and everyone's human and like, you know, it's just.

Jasper (34:02.211)
Hahaha

Jasper (34:06.434)
Yeah.

Jeff Pearlman IV (34:22.79)
It just is what it is, you just kind of learn and accept it.

Jasper (34:26.089)
Is there a is there sort of a another side to that though, because you say that, you know, you didn't. So yeah, but is there another side to that where you go, right, actually, this person is far more interesting than I ever thought he or she was going to be that maybe surprised you in a good way. Okay.

Jeff Pearlman IV (34:30.104)
I can't hear you.

Jeff Pearlman IV (34:42.188)
I can't hear it wait.

Wait, I have bad news, I can't hear you. Hold on. You hear me okay if I do this? Can you hear me now? All right, go ahead, I'm sorry. Yeah. Yep.

Chad (34:50.361)
Did you, did your, uh, they might've, might've lost, uh, yeah. Can you hear us?

Jasper (34:55.445)
Yeah, I can still hear you.

Jasper (35:12.582)
No problem.

Jasper (35:29.509)
complete opposite in a good way.

Jeff Pearlman IV (35:33.334)
I think what happens.

I think what happens is you see the humanity in people and there's something really cool about that. And that doesn't mean surprise. I'll give you a great example. Like Dwight Gooden, when I was a kid growing up in New York, Dwight Gooden was the man, like the man. And as a kid, if you were growing up in New York, even if you were a Yankee fan, like you idolized Dwight Gooden. He was larger, he literally, you drove through New York City, there was this enormous side to the building, billboard of Dwight Gooden, his lineup. He was as big as you could be in the eighties. And I was a big Dwight Gooden fan.

Jasper (35:51.098)
Hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (36:07.898)
And then Dwight Gooden had all these problems with substance abuse. And then maybe a decade ago, there's a strip club in New York City called Scores. And Dwight Gooden was being paid like 500 bucks to be a Santa, dress up as Santa one day at Scores for 500 bucks. And I remember thinking how sad that is, how profoundly sad that is. But you know, this is gonna sound weird. It makes me love Dwight Gooden more because I see all the...

Jasper (36:24.069)
Hehehe

Chad (36:25.781)
Wow.

Jasper (36:34.509)
Hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (36:35.142)
problems he's had, the struggles he's had, the humanity. The just, being famous at a young age, then becoming a drug addict at a young age, and spending the rest of your life fighting this, fighting this, fighting this, to the point where you're at your lowest, you're a strip club, I mean, it sounds funny, but like you're strip club Santa Claus, and you're Dwight Gooden. And like, in a lot of ways that just.

Jasper (36:52.298)
Heh.

Jeff Pearlman IV (36:59.386)
You know, something about that just hits me in the heart in a way it never would have with Dwight Gooden. I mean Tupac, to me Tupac is a great example for me actually. You know, like I started the research on Tupac. Okay, he's a rapper, he's an actor, he's a really interesting figure. And as I sit here now writing the book, almost done with all of my research, what I see is he's a guy who went through so much trauma, whose family went through so much trauma.

Jasper (37:14.969)
Hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (37:26.778)
this unique trauma that blacks in America go through, especially his mom being a Black Panther incarcerated when she was pregnant, on and on and on. And all of a sudden you don't just see Tupac as like, oh, this rapper who did hit him up in California Love. You see him as this really vulnerable, deep, detailed, trauma-impacted human being. And it changes the way you think people are times a thousand.

Jasper (37:49.282)
Yeah.

Chad (37:51.975)
Oh.

Jasper (37:52.421)
I wish, you know, and that's a perspective that is just, I think once you get it, I've had it with a few people that I've either portrayed in documentaries or it's, and it's, I agree completely. Like the humanity aspect of it all. It impresses me far more to see, you know, a person, the, all the saying is right. It, it, it's very much about how a person treats his or her waitress in a, in a restaurant compared to how they act on camera in all these nice interviews.

And to see that firsthand, it's certain people you go right now actually that person is a genuine good person Like he's treated the way to nice. It's it. He's a nice person. That is the humanity aspect just becomes more important

Jeff Pearlman IV (38:31.822)
Yeah, and I wanna say, again, in a way, going back to John Rocker dropping his pen on the sidewalk, you think so little of the person who has to pick up your shit that you're just dropping it. I thought the greatest indictment of Barry Bonds wasn't steroids. I think he's under the impression that he's not getting in the hall strictly because of steroids and all that stuff, and it's certainly a big part of it. If you treat everyone like garbage, it comes back to you. He wasn't nice to the guy, the clubhouse guys.

Jasper (38:36.962)
Yeah.

Chad (38:40.939)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (38:40.993)
Yeah, exactly.

Jeff Pearlman IV (39:00.578)
He wasn't nice to the fans. He wasn't nice to teammates. He was nice if you needed him, but he wasn't a nice person. I mean, there was a, I used to work with a photographer at Sports Illustrate, this great, great photographer named Ron Madra. And that's how I did a story on bonds, I think in 93 when he first came to Giants. And Ron Madra in the magazine rented out from the city of San Francisco, the number 25 cable car, so they could pose him with it. They set it aside. It cost the magazine tens of thousands of dollars every day.

Jasper (39:04.153)
Hmm, exactly, yeah.

Jeff Pearlman IV (39:31.206)
I don't know how many days it was, three or four days in a row. Bonds hadn't arranged time to show up, didn't show up. Hadn't arranged time to show up, didn't show up. Finally, Ron Madger walks up to Bonds, and Bonds says, dude, deal with it. Like, I get it, you think you're something, but like, this guy has a job to do. He actually has a job to do. And like, not for nothing, he has a family back home that you're not thinking one iota of because you think you're this guy. And like, he actually, he's not just a photographer, he's a human being with kids who has to be somewhere, and you think so little of other people.

Jasper (39:46.523)
Yeah.

Jasper (39:59.319)
Exactly.

Jeff Pearlman IV (40:01.274)
And that to me is the greatest indictment of Barry Bonds, actually, as a person. It's like, he was just mean for sport to people. He did it almost could. And like, that to me is the worst. John Rocker dropping his pen. Whenever I bring that up, people are like, wait, that's the thing that told you? And I was like, what kind of person doesn't care about someone having to pick up his garbage? It's like, it's like when you go to a supermarket and people leave their carts in the parking lot, that's what you would think. What is wrong with you? Like, why would you make someone's life harder? So, anyway.

Jasper (40:07.804)
Mmm.

Jasper (40:15.745)
No, but I get it. I fully get it. Yeah.

Jasper (40:24.282)
Yeah.

Chad (40:27.241)
Yes.

Chad (40:30.661)
Yeah. And why leave it in the parking spot that I'm trying to get into, asshole? Right? So, so what's, what's the recipe for you? I mean, because you're obviously incredibly successful with, with telling these stories, but there's a lot. And you talk about how exhausting it is and knowing that you've got to throw your whole being into this. What's, what's the recipe and how do you choose your subject?

Jeff Pearlman IV (40:35.466)
Exactly.

Jeff Pearlman IV (40:57.926)
Crackin' hookers.

Jasper (41:01.435)
And Brian Jelson.

Chad (41:02.585)
Let me write that down. That's how we got you on the show.

Jeff Pearlman IV (41:04.181)
Um.

Brian Johnson (41:04.782)
Heheheheh.

Jeff Pearlman IV (41:06.406)
Yeah.

Jasper (41:07.033)
Thank you, thank you, Jeff, for your beautiful appearance on this podcast. We look forward to episode two.

Brian Johnson (41:13.325)
I'm out.

Chad (41:13.418)
Ehh!

Jeff Pearlman IV (41:13.743)
Yeah, hold on. Yeah, we'll be over there in a minute. Hold on. No, I'm just kidding, that was a joke.

Jeff Pearlman IV (41:20.738)
I, okay, this is how I view it. This is gonna sound weird. There's a, like people all the times would be like, you should do a book about, literally I took a walk this morning. There's a guy who lives near me. And he's like, he's a neighbor. I didn't even know he knows who I am. He's like, you know, you can do a book on Thomas Hollywood Henderson, who is a linebacker with the Dallas Cowboys in the 70s, right, drug addict and an interesting guy, right? And I'm like, I don't know. Like,

Jasper (41:31.045)
Hehehehe

Jeff Pearlman IV (41:51.27)
And there's nothing, that's no indictment of Thomas Hollywood Henderson. It's like, there's a difference between someone being great and even someone being great, interesting, and someone being iconic. And it's like, you know it when you see it. Like.

Russell Wilson has had a great NFL career. Brett Favre had an iconic NFL career. Was Brett Favre that much better than Russell Wilson? No, not really. But there's something about Favre, the way he touched people, the way he moved people, that made him iconic, iconic. I wrote a book about Roger Clemens. It's my worst selling book by far. Why was it poorly sold? I think number one, people didn't wanna pay 30 bucks about someone they just strongly dislike. But number two, he's not really iconic. Like Roger Clemens didn't move people. You know, he didn't move people. He was a great pitcher.

Jasper (42:10.271)
Yeah.

Jasper (42:15.565)
Hmm.

Jasper (42:24.431)
Hmm.

Jasper (42:30.009)
Tch.

Jasper (42:33.892)
Mm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (42:36.346)
people enjoyed watching him, but he didn't move people. Tupac is an iconic figure in history. It doesn't mean it'll sell, but he's an iconic figure in history. So there's just this difference. The Showtime Lakers are iconic, right? Like Kobe is iconic. I don't think Shaq is iconic. I think Shaq is beloved. So there's just like, you know it when you see it. And for me, once I pick a subject, like Bo Jackson actually, Bo Jackson is an icon. He's actually not an all-time great Major League player or NFL player.

Chad (43:01.501)
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Jeff Pearlman IV (43:05.51)
but there's something iconic about him because of the mystique of it all. So once I decide on a subject, I just dive in. The first thing I do is I go to eBay and I buy every book out there I can find about the subject, every magazine, every everything. I mean, my bookshelf, which I'm staring at, is loaded, overflowing with Tupac books, dozens and dozens and dozens of Tupac books. Then I build a library. I go to different newspaper databases. I literally build a library where I have the biggest library I can find.

Then you read through everything and you start circling names. I'll go through like with Tupac, all the liner notes of all his albums. Producer, producer, executive producer, studio guy, blah blah, sound guy, blah blah. Then you start calling him one by one by one. And then those people say, you know who you need to call? John Smith, he was blank. And you need to, John Smith will say, oh, you need to call Becky, she was great. And before long, you just have this enormous database of people and then where I'm at right now is then,

Jasper (43:39.086)
Hmm.

Jasper (43:55.671)
Mmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (44:03.298)
It's the hardest part. You have to sit down and write it. So you take all this stuff and you consolidate it. And that's when the crack and hookers come in because it's really hard.

Jasper (44:12.099)
haha

Chad (44:13.349)
So, so you've been doing sports this entire time. What, what made the transition to Tupac? Was it just, he was just that iconic of a figure. You're like, look, I'm going to take the leap and I'm going to, I'm going to do something other than sports.

Jeff Pearlman IV (44:28.61)
Yeah, I mean, I've always wanted to. I'm really into politics and I'm really into hip hop and the world doesn't need another political book, you know, like it just does write another Trump book or another, like it just doesn't need it. And also I think I would blow my brains out. Like I think I would lose my mind writing a political book. To me, Tupac is the icon who, while there have been a gazillion books written related to him, there hasn't been that sort of Malcolm X, Marilyn Monroe, James Dean, Joe DiMaggio interview 600 people, deep dive birth to death.

Jasper (44:33.737)
Hmm.

Chad (44:33.766)
Mm.

Chad (44:37.728)
God no.

Jasper (44:37.846)
Look.

Chad (44:43.304)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (44:58.566)
treatment. So I was really intrigued by it. There was a writer named Kevin Powell, who wrote a lot about Tupac. I told him this he was not happy, but I'll just say it here. He had on his website for years working on a Tupac book, right? Working on a Tupac book, which is a big no no, by the way, you should never have on your website for years something

Brian Johnson (45:09.782)
Yeah

Jasper (45:10.58)
Yeah

Jasper (45:19.607)
Never put the idea out there, no

Jeff Pearlman IV (45:22.042)
So he had it on there and years after year after year, and the book just never, it never happened. And finally I was like, I don't think he's doing it. I'm doing it. I made a big mistake, I texted him recently, and I was like, hey, I would love to talk to you for this book. I wasn't gonna do it, but I saw you're not doing it, so I just decided. He was not happy. I mean, it was like, it was pretty, but that's kind of why I did it, because I was like, well, this guy's not doing it, I'm just gonna do it. So here I am.

Brian Johnson (45:50.688)
Hahaha

Chad (45:51.957)
So what are the ingredients? I mean, there's gotta be a recipe, right? What are the ingredients to, you went from Favre, he's iconic, Tupac, he's iconic. Is it deeper than that? Do you think that, I mean, again, because you're putting your time and your life in 600 interviews, that is amazing.

Jeff Pearlman IV (46:11.982)
Yeah, I mean, I think the number one goal truly is to find stuff other people didn't find. Like that's the number one goal, find stuff other people didn't find. And the one thing I have going for me, and I really sincerely mean this, like there are better writers who will come along and write about Tupac. There's always someone better. No matter what you do in your life, there's always better. There's always a better writer, there's always a better baseball player, there's always a better pocket. Like there just are. But I always think like what you can control is you can outwork anyone.

Like that's the one thing you can control. I can outwork anyone. So I'll just call everybody. I will travel anywhere. I will dig and I will knock on doors and I will like a couple of weeks ago, I flew to Lumberton, North Carolina with Chupac's mom, a Fanny Shakur was born and raised in Lumberton. And I wanted to go to the Lumberton library and dig through the archives. And the funny thing is I get to the Lumberton library and the freaking microfilm machine was broken.

Jasper (47:04.006)
Hehehehe

Jeff Pearlman IV (47:11.534)
And I was like, wait, I just flew 2,500 miles to be here and you're microfilming. But it turns out a couple of her cousins still live in Lumberton and her old house is in Lumberton and it's this abandoned house. So I went to her old house and I interviewed her old cousins and I'm like, I don't think other people are going to Lumberton to do a Tupac book, right? Doesn't mean the book will be great. I could still screw it up, but I know I'm gonna put in the effort and try to do things other people aren't. And that to me, whenever I talk to young writers.

Jasper (47:31.854)
Hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (47:39.59)
And they're like, what do I need? Blah, blah, blah. I'm always like, you just need to outwork everyone. It's all about hustle. That's the number one thing, it's just all about hustle.

Chad (47:46.709)
From now on when you make those trips, make sure that you have a microfiche bulb with you at all times. Ha ha ha.

Jeff Pearlman IV (47:51.99)
Exactly. I appreciate that.

Jasper (47:52.237)
Hehehehehehe

Brian Johnson (47:52.748)
Yeah.

Brian Johnson (47:56.022)
Boys will be boys, your book on the Dallas Cowboys. We're bouncing around to all the books, so I know that you're ready. Troy Aikman, Emmett Smith, Michael Irvin, Jerry Jones, and the rest of them. You've been in basketball locker rooms, baseball locker rooms, football locker rooms. What is the pin drop on the floor for your Dallas Cowboys book? What is the-

the simple thing that really stood out from that whole experience.

Jeff Pearlman IV (48:27.718)
So there was a defensive back on that team named Clayton Holmes. And he played like three years. And I reached out to him and he lived in Florence, South Carolina. And I went to visit him in Florence, South Carolina. And Clayton Holmes lived in a shack outside his mother's house, literally a shack, with a wire providing power, like he had a cord connecting.

his mom's house to his house, so he would have power in his house. And I think he would go in and use his mom's bathroom, but he literally lived in this shack. He lost all his money. His bike had recently been stolen. He was working as a personal trainer. And I remember, number one, just sitting there with this guy, who it's such a common athlete mistake. You think you have everything. You sign a three-year, $1 million contract.

and you think I'm a millionaire because he came from nothing and he didn't know and he didn't have the financial wherewithal training. And you think you're a millionaire. Well, you last X number seasons in NFL, you're not a millionaire. You lose all your money, you're paying your agent X percent. That car you bought is repossessed and all of a sudden you're living in a shack. And he told me something that has stuck with me and I led the book with it, I think. He said, when he was with the Cowboys, he was in a bar one day and Tony Dorsett happened to be in the bar. And someone came up to Clayton Holmes and said,

Hey, I'm a big fan, can I buy you a drink? And Clayton Holmes said, he said, nah, that's okay, I'm good. And Tony Dorsett tapped him on the shoulder and said, hey, young buck, they're not gonna remember you forever. So when someone offers you something, take it, because it doesn't last. I remember sitting there in the shack with Clayton Holmes thinking he wasn't aware of really how profound that moment was.

Jasper (50:11.229)
Hmm

Chad (50:14.342)
Wow.

Yeah.

Brian Johnson (50:18.926)
It's heartbreaking. Yeah, because you got to live for another 40 or 50 years, hopefully, after that. So you got to stretch that puppy out no matter what money you get. You're an East Coast guy, grew up East Coast guy. You, some years ago, moved to the West Coast to SoCal. Did that change you as a writer? Are you a better writer as a California than you were an Eastern Coast guy?

Jasper (50:21.114)
for another 40 or 50 years hopefully. After that, you gotta stretch that.

Jasper (50:39.129)
you were.

Jeff Pearlman IV (50:42.062)
I'm a happier writer because I'm a coffee shop writer. I love writing in coffee shops. What I really hated about New York and coffee shop writing was I had my local Starbucks and I'd write there in like November, December, January and the door would open and every time the door would open on that frigid day, it'd be whoosh and I'd be like, oh, this sucks. So now, taking out in the sunshine, I'm wearing my flip-flops, I'm writing in the sun. I'm just a happier person, so that can't hurt.

Brian Johnson (50:44.598)
Yeah.

Brian Johnson (51:07.83)
Yeah, that's great.

Chad (51:09.229)
Sunshine will do that.

Jasper (51:10.558)
Sunshine will do it. Yeah, there's not a lot of sunshine here guys. One of the last questions I had for you, Jeff, I've spent far too long on writing my first ever book. I know it's going to be a couple more years before I end up maybe finishing it. But I think documentaries for me is easier because I can just sort of film it and put nice music underneath it and just put it out there.

in really blunt terms. What I'm interested in knowing is though, because you've portrayed all these different people and all of them have this similar sense of being iconic. I, for one, love underdogs in sports. Like, give me a mediocre left-handed reliever who lives in a van, Daniel Norris, the guy who talks about earlier Brian.

Brian Johnson (51:54.365)
Hahaha

Chad (51:56.841)
down by the river.

Jasper (51:57.197)
And I'll become an instant fan. I love the struggle of sports. All my teams have the same sort of idea of being very bad when I first started supporting them. And luckily enough for me, they still are very bad. So I love underdogs. But I'd be curious to know, would you ever do... Is there any underdogs that you have in mind where you go, I would love to write this story? I'm afraid no one will buy the book.

Jeff Pearlman IV (52:22.918)
I mean, I always have ideas of books that I know nobody's gonna buy. I mean, I wrote, okay, I wrote a book, two books ago, about the United States Football League, which is a football league. I came along and it was the ultimate underdog. It battled the NFL. I agent act, that was my underdog book. My agent literally said to me, and I love my agent, because I kept pestering him, USFL, USFL. He literally said to me, Jeff, nobody wants a fucking USFL book. He literally said that to me.

Jasper (52:26.83)
Hehehehe

Jasper (52:33.325)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chad (52:33.521)
Yeah, yes FL.

Jasper (52:51.15)
Hehehehehehe

Jeff Pearlman IV (52:52.218)
The only way I got that deal is I pitched the Favre book and I said I would take less money from the publisher. I said I'll take less money from the Favre book if you let me write this USFL book. All right, fine. They gave me a horrible money for it. I had one year to do it. I threw everything I had into that book. It is truly one underdog's story after another. Guy's rejected by the NFL. Guy's working blue collar jobs, et cetera, et cetera. That is the most gratifying book I've ever written by far.

Jasper (52:58.242)
Hmm.

Jasper (53:13.193)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Pearlman IV (53:21.998)
the most gratifying book I've ever written. It made the New York Times list, which made me insanely happy because it made me feel like an underdog who actually accomplished something. And so that, you know, I'm just like you. I love underdogs. And also one of the cool things is a lot of people who are iconic actually started as underdogs. T-Bock was a poor kid from Marin City. He was an underdog. Brad Favre was a kid from the Kiln, Mississippi. He was an underdog. Barry Bonds was an entitled rich kid. He was not an underdog, but a lot of people are underdogs.

Jasper (53:28.589)
Yeah.

Jasper (53:40.246)
Absolutely, yeah.

Jasper (53:50.5)
Hahaha

Jasper (53:54.957)
That's awesome.

Brian Johnson (53:56.086)
Well, again, like I said in the opening, Jeff, though we are friends, I do consider you a very impactful and iconic writer for our sports genre, for sports books, sports biographies. So keep up the good work. Thanks for being with us today. You helped get our podcast kicked off in the early stages and we wish you the best on the Tupac book.

Jasper (54:04.485)
Hmm.

Jeff Pearlman IV (54:19.898)
Yeah, and Brian, I just want to know, I will be calling you for the next dog to my cat fancy article that's coming out in a couple weeks, all right? All right.

Brian Johnson (54:25.998)
Hey, I sit by the phone waiting for your next text.

Jasper (54:27.233)
haha

Jeff Pearlman IV (54:30.99)
Guinea pig digest needs to hear about.

Chad (54:33.198)
A guinea pig digest, that's awesome. Whoo!

Brian Johnson (54:34.062)
That's right.

Jasper (54:36.237)
I'm just happy we finally got to the truth of Brian's day job. That we finally nailed it. No one has a clue what this guy is doing. He's just sitting by the phone trying to be his source.

Chad (54:39.431)
Yes.

Brian Johnson (54:42.082)
You're a-

Chad (54:42.122)
And I can't.

Brian Johnson (54:44.418)
You're right. And you can't question him, right? He writes a biography about people. So everything he says is the God-honest truth, right?

Jeff Pearlman IV (54:51.775)
Thank you, these were great questions, I really appreciate it.

Jasper (54:52.872)
I love it. Thanks, Jeff.

Chad (54:54.725)
Excellent man, we appreciate it and listener, we'll be back next week for more talent chasing. Later.

Brian Johnson (55:02.53)
Thanks man, appreciate it.