Chasing Dusty Baker

Chad Sowash (00:19.023)
Welcome to Talent Chasing, where we bring together the world of major league sports, corporate talent, and journalism to amplify real world stories and experience in finding, retaining, and motivating the best talent for your team. I'm Chad Sawash, corporate recruitment and tech expert.

Brian Johnson (00:40.598)
I'm Brian Johnson, former major league baseball player.

Jasper (00:44.083)
And I'm Jasper Spangard, journalist documentary filmmaker, depressed Marlins fan, depressed Nets fan, depressed England fan. You just name your team. I that's enough. Yeah. Well, yeah.

Chad Sowash (00:54.935)
You asked for it. You asked for it. asked for it. On today's show though, let's get to the fun stuff. On today's show we have Dusty Baker. That's right kids. You know, the very prolific, very amazing, not just player, but also manager. Dusty spent time in the major baseball, as a major baseball player from 1968 to 86. And as a manager from 93 to 2023. Man, Dusty, I mean that's.

As about as prolific as you can get my friend 55 years with some breaks here and there two time two time all -star two time World Series champ as a player and a manager Golden Glove Silver Slug. mean I could go on forever 2000 plus career games wins as a manager managed bonds Kent Williams. So said Ken Griffith G. I can't I can't even say the long list man Brian

Dusty Baker (01:29.185)
Yes.

Chad Sowash (01:51.347)
I know you know Dusty, know obviously you know the sport. So what do you think? What do you think about having Dusty on the show? What do you want to talk about? Because there's so much to talk about.

Brian Johnson (02:02.39)
Yeah, there is a lot. It's probably one of the most interesting people you will ever meet. Dusty and I have been friends for a long time. And my first question I want to kind of push back to when Dusty and I first met, both of us lost a friend of ours just not too long ago in a legendary track coach named Brooks Johnson. And he was a former Olympic coach, has been in, he was a head Stanford University track coach for a long time. Then he was in Orlando, Florida coaching a lot of folks for long time.

He just passed at 93, a great run. But I want to ask you, Dusty, when did you come in contact with Brooks and how did he help with you you, I think you were just starting to coach back

Dusty Baker (02:43.167)
Well, you know, I was thinking about this the other day. I really don't know how I met Brooks. I thought I met Brooks through you.

Brian Johnson (02:50.352)
Mm, no, I meant, yeah, well, keep going, sorry.

Dusty Baker (02:53.877)
no, no, no, no, no,

Brian Johnson (02:59.872)
She did, but I can't remember hearing him tell me about you.

Dusty Baker (03:04.426)
Okay, maybe the only thing I could think about was maybe through Bill Walsh. I mean, because Bill was there, was Bill there the same time that Brooks was

Brian Johnson (03:06.038)
But,

Brian Johnson (03:17.29)
No, he was with the 49ers, but they knew each other. They were good friends.

Dusty Baker (03:20.254)
Okay, cuz I can't remember it. was trying to and then I had just asked you for his phone number the other day after after seeing the you know that documentary on on on Butch. On Butch Reynolds and then I saw him on on the TV. I was like man. I haven't talked to him in a long time and then I think you call me back like two or three later two or three days later and told me that he had passed.

Brian Johnson (03:34.57)
Which Reynolds?

Dusty Baker (03:49.373)
Man, was a very sad week for me because I had just gone to see Willie Mays on a Monday and then he passed on Tuesday. And then Willie was more concerned about Orlando Cepeda than he was himself. And he had written Orlando, you know, a dictated letter. And then, man, next thing you know, Orlando passed a week later.

Brian Johnson (04:17.256)
I I know it's been a tough time. I think I remember when you initially were, when we first initially met, I believe you were just starting to coach and Roger Craig, your manager, and you were coaching, hitting coach, your first base coach, and you were having trouble with Kevin Mitchell, I think the story went.

Dusty Baker (04:30.856)
Yeah, and then and I was and I and I remember I talked to Bill and I talked to a Bill Wallstatt is and I talked to Brooks, you know about it and and now you know Kevin calls me Papa, you know, like I'm one of his favorite all time. But at the time you know like some players, you know my message was wasn't one that they wanted to

And but sometimes it takes time for them to listen to you or to hear your message. And the first thing that they told me was that maybe he doesn't want to get an A in your class. And I was like, and as a coach or manager, you're like, you know, like who wouldn't want to get an A? Well, when I think about my life, there were times I could have gotten an A too, didn't want to get an A, I was satisfied with the B.

this is, mean, that was a tough lesson to learn. And like I said, I had some great teachers, know, Bill Walsh used to take me over to his house and with a grease board and talk about coaching, managing, managing people, talk about retirement, you know, which I'm using to this day when he told me that most men get depressed after they get, after they retire.

Uh, because they don't have anything to fill that 60 or 70 % void in their life and time that, they were, that they were, uh, you know, using on their job. And, so, which is one reason why I'm still a little bit, you know, a dabble with the giants, a little bit with TBS versus doing cold Turkey. And all of sudden you have all this time and you can only fish and hunt or, or I don't play golf, you know,

Jasper (06:14.399)
Thank

Jasper (06:17.927)
Yeah.

Dusty Baker (06:20.986)
You know, or travel so much. And, you know, like I said, I've been very blessed to have, you know, guys like Brooks and Al Adels, you know, who was like, I mean, every time I was really having trouble, I know I could call one of those guys and it would, you know, straighten me out. didn't always understand what they were saying, but I go back also what Hank Aaron told me when I was a young player. told

He'd ask me, you know, do you understand? I'd say, yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand. But, and he knew, he could tell by that lost look on my face that I didn't understand at all. But, and he told me, do me a favor. And I use this also with Bill and Al and Brooks and some of greats, you know, Dr. Jack Ramsey that I've met. He told me, you may not understand, just retain what I'm telling you in some days.

some day you may understand it might be five, 10, 15 years down the line or it might be tomorrow. And it's come to pass like rather quickly. I remember I was at the plate and Hank, well, Hank had told me five years before, he says, you watch the shortstop move, he'll tell you what's coming if he moves early. And he says, you understand? Yeah, I didn't understand nothing.

Jasper (07:43.621)
Hahaha

Dusty Baker (07:45.411)
And then five years later, I saw Ozzie Smith move over in the hole over there right before the pitch. And I said, dang, how come I didn't see that before? And I remember Pete Vukovic threw me a breaking ball and I hit it over the fence. The next day he asked me, how'd you, man, that was a good breaking ball that you hit. And I didn't say anything, you know, cause the press asked me and Hank said to tell him, you know, he threw it probably, you know, where he didn't want to throw it or, you know,

He hung it and he has a better breaking ball. And then now I see guys that are like, yeah, I was sitting on it. I was looking forward this and that. And Hank said, don't tell him that because he said, then he'll throw you the same pitch. And now you got two home runs to the one before he figures out that you might be pretty smart. so like I said, I've had some dynamite teachers including my father.

Chad Sowash (08:42.647)
So as a player, talk a little bit about that because obviously the mentorship is big and you were playing in the majors for almost 20 years. Talk a little bit about that and how some of the guys in the locker room that dug out some of your players, but also your coaches, how they helped to mentor you through your career because that's a long career as a professional baseball

Dusty Baker (09:12.502)
Well, you know, especially back in those days, guys used to take the younger players under their wings that they thought had potential to be something. Or if you were a listener and didn't be a little smart ass kid, you know, they would talk to you and like you around them and take you with them and pay for every meal or buy you a suit or whatever. That's how it was back in those days.

Chad Sowash (09:21.611)
Mm -hmm.

Dusty Baker (09:39.489)
Like I said, I signed when I was 17 going on 18 years old and Dodger Stadium. I didn't really didn't want to play baseball. I wanted to play basketball or or or football. I had a couple track scholarships as well, but my dad wanted me to go to Santa Clara University of Santa Clara, which is a predominantly kind of rich white school, and I had just come out of a totally a total.

Dusty Baker (10:09.408)
white school, the only blacks in the school were me and my little brother. And so I did not want to go back to that environment again, especially that was the time in 67 when our country was in a turmoil racially with the war in Vietnam, you know, with nonconformity. And I was a little confused at the time. I,

So I prayed on it. The Braves drafted me. My dad told him not to draft me. And then they sent me and my mom to, know, sent for me and my mom to go to LA to work out with the Dodgers. That was my favorite team as a kid growing up before I moved to Northern Cal. So they knew what they were doing. And they gave me a number 12. That was my schoolboy. He wrote Tommy Davis. And

And I prayed on it and I didn't know what to do. I the oldest of five. My parents had just gotten divorced. Brian, you've been in that situation too. And things shift to, most of the time, whoever's the oldest. And Hank Karen promised my mother that he would take care of me as if I was his son. And so, yeah, so he took me with him. I went to school

That winter as a student because Vietnam was hot, so you had to carry 15 units per semester or else you're drafted in between semesters and I need to wait to see what my you know what my lottery number was. I didn't want to take a chance, so I joined the Marines instead and so which is another story that people say. Why didn't you join the National Guard? Because they were being getting called out on riots during that time and I was like no, there's no way could join

Jasper (11:35.797)
Hmm.

Chad Sowash (11:56.577)
Yeah.

Dusty Baker (12:01.093)
the National Guard. So anyway, like I said, Hank took care of me. Orlando Cepeda, whom we traded for the next year. I was always a September call up. I didn't get to stay in the big leagues until 72, but I was a call up in 68, 69, 70 and 71. So I was always around the big boys and I was always the youngest.

you know, play around and and Willie Mays' funeral still the youngest goes up there one there shawl and enjoy a mouth of tonneau and. Thing who was own Felipe Lou, who was also one of my. I mean, I told him I got my first bat in in Dodger Stadium when Felipe was on the Braves. The day I signed and so these things have come kind

full circle for me, I've gotten a lot of advice. And far as managing and managing people and being a coach and a manager, I've tried to learn as much as I can from people ahead of me and my mentors, but some of the best lessons I've had is how not to be. Because how not to be is as important as how to be.

Jasper (13:21.491)
Hahaha.

Brian Johnson (13:27.22)
Yeah, that's a good one. So many questions there. Joey Mafo, town hall, great that he's still around. Felipe Alou, all these great names that I remember from my career. But the National Guard piece versus the Marines is interesting. You didn't want to go in the National Guard because those National Guards are being brought out to kind of get engaged with black folks during that time in the 60s or was it something

Dusty Baker (13:49.241)
getting engaged now with black folks, but getting engaged with hippies or nonconformists or, I wasn't necessarily anti -Vietnam, but wasn't nobody pro -Vietnam either. And, you know, I lost a lot of buddies. If I didn't lose them over there in Vietnam, we lost them when they got back over here, because they weren't the same.

Brian Johnson (13:56.148)
Yeah, Anti -Vietnam stuff during those days,

Brian Johnson (14:06.432)
Yeah, sure.

Dusty Baker (14:19.386)
Uh, it was, uh, I mean, that was a very tumultuous time. There was, you know, my dad didn't like me going to Berkeley. He didn't like me, uh, you know, cause you know, he wasn't, you know, really crazy about like, you know, H rep Brown and Angela Davis and different, uh, civic leaders. My mom was more on that side of things. You know, she's a black studies teacher at the college here. She went back school at the 40 years. And

you know, on her wall was, was, you know, Malcolm X and Angela Davis and the people used to tell her she kind of looked like Angela Davis little bit. And on my dad's wall was, you know, it Martin Luther King. And, you know, I'm looking at one of my dad's, you know, Roy Wilkins, behind me and Martin Luther King in front of me, you know, were my dad's. so I was a combination of both.

And being a Gemini, that's apropos that I'm kind of angry on one side and kind of mellow on the other

Chad Sowash (15:27.509)
Me too, Dusty. Me too, me too.

Brian Johnson (15:27.584)
love her and the fighter, I love it. So speaking, you mentioned earlier before we came on the show that your son Darren is home for the All -Star break playing minor league baseball with the Nationals. We'll get to the big leagues this year, we're all pulling for him. But I wanted to touch on, you mentioned the conversation or the conflict you had with your dad when you signed coming out high school. Grant a different world at that point. But Darren.

goes to Cal Berkeley and plays college ball first and then gets signed later. Tell me a little bit about your conversation with Darren or in general that kind of conversation. Was there a conflict there that he want to sign? Did you see it differently as a kid when you were growing up versus being a dad and a parent and a coach and former player?

Dusty Baker (16:12.472)
Yeah, that's a great question. Number one, I was the oldest of five and my parents just got divorced. So the economic of the wheel were off. And my dad's the $300 a month apartment that he got kind of threw things economically out of whack. My dad worked two jobs for 35 years. And, you know, my mom had gone back to school. She was a teacher. so things

Brian Johnson (16:19.666)
wow.

Jasper (16:34.133)
Hmm.

Dusty Baker (16:39.927)
economically upside down. And like I said, me being the oldest, I really wanted to go to college and play baseball. My dad insisted that I go to college. My mom was big on college, but she went back. My dad never went to college. And so my dad was totally upset when they drafted me. Number one, they took a, I was 25th round draft choice. There was only 26 rounds. And so, you know, like I left.

Me and my mom and I signed with the Braves. And when I came home, I was to go back to college, like I said, because Vietnam was hot. So think I was gone a month or three weeks, came back home. And then I got served papers to appear in court with my mom and our lawyer against my dad and his lawyer because he tried to nullify my contract.

because he didn't want me to sign. And so, they invoked the Jackie Krueger Child Prodigy Law that stopped parents from spending their kids' for young actors. And so, I had to go to school to get part of my money, let me buy a car. The rest of my money, which I got kind of second round money, even though I was 25th round draft choice.

They put in IBM and stand over California and I didn't speak to my dad for three years and you know, I dropped my brothers and sisters off at his house because I you know that I'm grown now. I'm 18 years old. You know that famous speech. Yeah. Yeah, I bet you have and everybody else has. You know I'm 18 now. I'm grown. I'm independent and all that stuff, you

Chad Sowash (18:23.261)
yeah. yeah. I know it. Yeah. Yup.

Brian Johnson (18:25.152)
Yeah, right. I did. I did that speech a

Chad Sowash (18:32.577)
Yeah.

Jasper (18:35.435)
Yeah.

Chad Sowash (18:35.541)
make my own choices.

Brian Johnson (18:35.86)
Right, did Darren give that speech to

Dusty Baker (18:38.588)
Yeah, and my daughter, you when I asked my daughter when she gave it to me, I said, okay, let me hear your independence because she, you know, she didn't want to curfew. She was a San Jose State. So I said, really? I said, let me hear your independence. I says, how much education costs? I don't know, dad. You know, like, you know, how much your insurance costs? I don't know, dad. How much your car costs? And she was like,

Jasper (18:55.677)
Hahaha

Dusty Baker (19:04.788)
or used car. She was, don't know. I said, well, let me hear you independence. She says, well, you know, I put gas in my car. I said, go ahead. And then she got stuck after she says she pays her phone bill. And I was like, that's a long ways from independence. You know what mean? And so anyway, when I turned 21, my money had tripled. you know, then I was looking at my dad a different light that he wasn't trying to help me. was trying to, you know, he wasn't trying to hurt me. He was trying to help

Jasper (19:15.411)
Yes.

Dusty Baker (19:35.141)
And so, you know, and I asked him one day, you know, excuse me, you know, I asked him one day, I says, hey man, you know, you really hurt me when you, when you, you know, took me and mom to court over my, and he goes, and see, I didn't think my dad was capable of hurt, you know, cause you don't think that about your strong dad. And I said, hey man, you know, and he goes,

It hurt me every time you should drop your brothers off at my house and sisters often and don't come inside even say hello at check on me. And then I just. Had to kind of like you know how you like swallow pro you know and I saw a big old crow so. So you know I learned to learn to valuable listener that that that my son doesn't think that I. Kinda.

Chad Sowash (20:15.579)
yeah.

Brian Johnson (20:19.232)
Yeah

Dusty Baker (20:30.61)
you know, whatever, sorrow either kind of and. You know, like you, you know, like those full circles, you know about things and you know, back in our day, you know, our dad showed us that they love us. I don't know about you, Brian, but my dad, my dad didn't tell me that he loved me until I was about 30 years old. Yeah, I didn't know what to say. I'm like, you know, me too, you know, so.

Brian Johnson (20:53.142)
Yeah, mine was 33.

Jasper (20:53.308)
Thank you.

Chad Sowash (20:59.575)
Yeah, yeah.

Dusty Baker (21:01.123)
And so, yeah, there you go, dad. And so, you know, now, you know, I tell my boy that I love him almost every day. So, you know, you learn different lessons in the different times and space where people tend to show more emotions now than they did before.

Brian Johnson (21:01.526)
Punch him, punch him in the arms. Yeah, me too.

Chad Sowash (21:21.889)
Great.

Jasper (21:22.109)
Absolutely. So this podcast is all about sort of identifying managing talent, which is something you've done an awful lot of. So I came across your sort of a legacy page and it wasn't per se your legacy, but it was sort of the moments in history, baseball history, where you were present. So you're on the on deck circle when Hank Aaron hit his sort of famous 750th home run. Later on as a manager, you saw Max Scherzer.

Dusty Baker (21:47.022)
Correct.

Jasper (21:51.155)
tie the single game strikeout record as a manager. So for me, that is like, you're combining two worlds there. You've had sort of front row tickets to how baseball has evolved and changed and during all those years, but from a sort of perspective of, of talent identification and talent management, how do you see the sort of biggest changes in, that time, when you take the, the years of watching Aaron hit the home runs versus, you know, the, shirts of the world, the strikeouts,

analytics driven sport that it's become. How do you look at those changes? How has baseball evolved?

Dusty Baker (22:26.895)
Well, that's a lot of questions. mean, it's no, no, no, that's good. That's cool. That's outside of answering. I mean, from a coaching standpoint, it's gotten harder to teach team, you know, than it was before, because now with the branding and take care of yourself and number one, which my generation, you know, kind of coined those those phrases, it's gotten a little tougher. And with the analytics,

Jasper (22:28.369)
I know, I just did four questions in one.

Brian Johnson (22:31.796)
Hahaha

Dusty Baker (22:57.019)
you know, I don't blame the players because, know, like Bob Morris says, don't blame the children. And, and I don't because they are taught to, to think certain way in order to get paid. And there are some, some tremendous ways, you know, to get paid now in this game. And, you know, when I first came in the game, you know, I mean, we were playing

kind of more team ball because if you didn't, you're paying for that bonus in the World Series ring that you would get, which would probably be equal or more than your salary. When I first came in the game, I think the minimum when I got called up was $13 ,000 a year. my first year in the big leagues was 15

And so most of us had to work in the winter time or go play winter ball. You know, that's where it's changed where you can like, like now you can like, you know, make the minimum, even though inflation has probably changed some from when I was there, but you know, you know, you can have the minimum and then, you know, you could still work out all winter and dedicate yourself to, to nutrition and, and,

Jasper (23:52.392)
Mm -hmm.

Dusty Baker (24:19.648)
You know, getting stronger where before you had to like if you're going to work out, had to do it after your your offseason job, which I had a job. I cars, I sold insurance. I mean, you know, most of us, you know, most of us worked. But, you know, in some ways, you know, the players are bigger and stronger, I think. But in other ways, you know, they're, you know, they're not as knowledgeable because they don't play as many games.

Jasper (24:28.669)
Yeah.

Dusty Baker (24:49.589)
to make mistakes in the minor leagues now, because you can, I mean, because now they're drafting kids that they think might be big league ready, especially out of college, but then a very short period of time. Now you might be ready on strikeouts, but do you know how to win? You might be ready on hitting, but do you know how to run the bases or do you throw to the right base? You know, there's so many things that you can't take away from,

Jasper (25:03.422)
Absolutely,

Dusty Baker (25:19.859)
you know playing a game and learning you know the knowledge of the game and in some ways it's better in some ways like i hear a lot about rest and recovery and that's all i hear about which is great but at some point in time if you're going to win but if you're going to win you have to overextend your mind and your body if you're going to win you can't have both ways

Jasper (25:31.626)
Mm -hmm.

Dusty Baker (25:48.84)
You know, you can't, you can't push it to the limit and win, but don't push it to the limit more mentally, physically and spiritually. And I mean, it's still a beautiful game. I love baseball, but it's, it's getting a little tougher for me to watch kind of, because I see, you know, a lot of mistakes that should have been covered, you know, a long time ago. But

Jasper (26:03.615)
Hmm.

Dusty Baker (26:16.296)
Like I said, Bob Marley said, don't blame the children and and the kids.

Jasper (26:22.405)
So during the sort of preparation of this podcast, cause I take it very seriously. I take a few hours to sort of look at everything or a few days actually. And I came across an interview you did with MLB network. it must've been after the, you won the world series with the Astros and you mentioned something along the lines of pitchers having to learn from their mistakes.

You look for pitches who are comfortable in a position where you put them third time, third time through the order and you go, I know that he's been there and he's made mistakes. And you've just sort of alleviated to that where pitches I feel like now are being pulled in the fifth inning because well, third time through, through the order, that's going to be the most dangerous always. ERA is going to skyrocket. what's going to happen. And you can see this sort of, dilemma turn up in the sport where I feel like pitches aren't really being

trained to go that far anymore. Um, and then not really making learning to make those mistakes that, know, can win them a world series, you know, that can win them games. But how do you look at that development? Because it's to me that the sport is changing so much. Cause I used to love nine inning, you know, shutouts or like the medics, the performances where you go 140, 40 pitches and you go shut out, you know, nine inning shutout

Dusty Baker (27:14.345)
True that.

Jasper (27:40.319)
But it's changing so rapidly, feel like. What's your view on

Dusty Baker (27:43.351)
Well, well, it is changing. I was just with Juan Marisol the other day on Willie Mays' memorial. he was, they were talking about how he went 16 innings and two pitches. I mean, now they would crucify you, you know, but, but, know, you know, they train differently, you know, I mean, their minds were,

Jasper (27:55.091)
Yeah. Yep.

Dusty Baker (28:05.607)
not in their minds, but their bodies were trained. I remember one day watching Ferguson Jenkins run nine innings in spring training line to line. And I asked him, said, man, what are you doing all this running for? Cause I don't see many guys running now. And he says, he says, man, you know, how else do you think I can go 300 innings, five years in a row and 20 games, 35 years in a row and in our bodies and, and, and they've tried to eliminate or, or minimize.

Jasper (28:27.177)
Mm -hmm.

Dusty Baker (28:35.751)
injuries, especially for pitchers, but they're taking better care of them, but they're getting even more injured now than they ever were before. so that kind of like, you know, it's counterproductive. You know, when they're trying to take care of them on one side and then on the other side, they still, you know, getting hurt or more. so, you know, when

Jasper (28:44.809)
That was exactly, yeah.

Dusty Baker (29:05.67)
when you're trained to go five innings, six innings, or if I was a pitcher or a pitcher that I was used to, you would rise to the challenge of why you can't get them out the third time around versus just accepting that I've done my job, I can't go the third time around. just like guys are accepting not hitting against a certain pitcher.

Chad Sowash (29:09.419)
Mm -hmm.

Jasper (29:34.005)
Yeah.

Dusty Baker (29:35.589)
playing and Brian will tell you this, if a guy could get you out like Raleigh fingers used to get me out all the time and JR Richard that man, I wouldn't go to sleep. You wanted to rise to the challenge to try to figure out how I was gonna get that guy versus now if you're 0 for 10 off a guy or whatever it is. Oh no, you can't hit that guy and you're supposed to accept it when you're one of the best athletes.

in the country or in the world and playing against other of the best athletes because that's what it's you know, that's what it's all about. It's all about competition. It's all about making adjustments and you know, it's about who's who's the strongest mentally probably first and then physically now I got a question for you Jasper. Have you ever been to Curacao because that's that that's a dust column.

Jasper (30:26.153)
Yeah.

Jasper (30:33.072)
No, it's yeah, it is.

Dusty Baker (30:33.634)
Right? Yeah, yeah, because one of I went to Curacao this winter to help out Bam Bam Newlands and I. Yeah, and Bam had had managed, I guess the team from the Netherlands and I saw a guy yesterday. I called Bam as a matter of fact, I saw a guy that was drafted yesterday. His dad used to be a catcher on the Netherlands team that threw.

Jasper (30:43.153)
BamBam, yeah, legend.

Dusty Baker (31:01.302)
Right hand and left handed. He was number one draft choice. Did you guys see

Jasper (31:04.669)
I saw that. is it? Saunche is his name? Saunche? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Crazy. I saw it too.

Brian Johnson (31:07.094)
they got those 99 right -handed and 95 left -handed? Crazy.

Dusty Baker (31:09.057)
Yeah. As the craziest thing I've ever seen. But I know that and I told Bam, mean, mean, you guys cursile, know, does call me as turned out some tremendous, tremendous players. and I remember I had one from Amsterdam named Rickert Fenaita. yeah. And he could play.

Chad Sowash (31:10.497)
Jeeze.

Jasper (31:27.274)
Yep.

Brian Johnson (31:33.944)
yeah, I remember

Dusty Baker (31:37.728)
But he had that kind of laid back attitude. he could really play. And so I nicknamed him whatever, because I said, man, why'd you do that? He'd go like this.

Jasper (31:43.336)
It's not going to help you probably in that environment.

Chad Sowash (31:45.077)
Yeah

Jasper (31:52.552)
Brian Johnson (31:53.139)
You

Dusty Baker (31:54.562)
So yeah, man, that's great that you guys podcast is going to different parts of the world. I'm really impressed with

Jasper (32:05.513)
Yeah. Well, it's funny that you bring up Curacao because I always laugh whenever the world baseball classic is around and baseball gets zero coverage here in the Netherlands. know, I'm a big baseball nerd. My entire bookshelf is filled with baseball books. I've loved this sport since. Yeah, I absolutely love the sport. But when they talk, when the world baseball classic comes around and the Netherlands has a team and it's called the Kingdom of the Netherlands. And there's two guys, basically two guys from Amsterdam.

Chad Sowash (32:05.59)
Yeah, yeah.

Dusty Baker (32:19.893)
I think I'm back

Dusty Baker (32:32.021)
Mm -hmm.

Jasper (32:34.763)
And then 25 guys from Curacao, because it's like, it has nothing to do with the kingdom of the Netherlands. It's basically Curacao's team. But then the Dutch media absolutely love it because it's like, look at that. Netherlands is playing Japan and they're winning. It's like, yeah, but they, those guys have not set foot here on soil on the Netherlands. They are...

Dusty Baker (32:42.037)
Yeah.

Dusty Baker (32:50.592)
Right?

Dusty Baker (32:56.417)
Yeah, but you know, but you know, some of them have, when I talked to Bam, you know, he, I mean, he was telling me how impressed he was with the Netherlands because I guess, you know, everybody can get educated. The cost of education is a lot cheaper than it is here. which is, explains why the people in courthouse speak four or five languages and they speak

Jasper (33:11.333)
Very cheap.

Jasper (33:16.491)
Well, yeah.

Dusty Baker (33:25.728)
I mean, that's what I was impressed with as much as anything. Like I said, I'd never been to Amsterdam. I was also impressed with the different color buildings that they said that made it look like Amsterdam. A red house would be next to a blue house and a blue house would next to a yellow house and see where we live. The HOAs and zoning, would never allow that. I

Jasper (33:44.181)
Yep.

Jasper (33:50.821)
hahahaha

Dusty Baker (33:54.599)
And I even brought back some miniature houses, know, houses that might look like Ashes. I was really impressed. So I'll see you in Asher Dam someday soon, okay?

Jasper (34:07.079)
Yeah, yeah, first bit is definitely on me.

Dusty Baker (34:10.002)
All

Chad Sowash (34:10.199)
When you're talking about Curacao, you're talking about, I the game has changed from a talent standpoint so much, Dusty, that, I mean, when you first got in, you didn't have Japanese players. You didn't have Curacao players, right? when you, mean, literally, in now the 2000s, right, 2022, you won a World Series. When it comes to scouting and identifying talent, we're not just looking at the US anymore. That might be primary, right?

Dusty Baker (34:21.641)
No. No.

Dusty Baker (34:29.459)
Hmm.

Dusty Baker (34:37.321)
Mm -hmm.

Chad Sowash (34:37.904)
What is an organization doing to be able to focus on the best talent that's in the world today versus when you first started in the 60s?

Dusty Baker (34:48.222)
Well, you know, when I first started, know, most of the best talent was here. And a lot of the talent at that time, I was like second, third generation where the black players were allowed to play in the United States. So at that time, you know, they were scouting more black players. I mean, I got a picture of my wall is about eight black players on the team in a combination with the Braves of probably 10 to

black and latin's because back then it was mostly black, latin and white. but the world's become the world's shrunk and the world's become global, really. You know, I mean, football has become global. I mean, look, look, they're playing games in London or playing games abroad. Some of us has to do with marketing and have to do with selling T -shirts and jerseys, which you understand. But.

Chad Sowash (35:30.229)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Chad Sowash (35:39.861)
Yeah.

Jasper (35:42.069)
Yep.

Chad Sowash (35:43.083)
I look at basketball, mean basketball has become global.

Dusty Baker (35:45.565)
is the most low, you know? And they got some bad dudes coming out of some of these countries. mean, I'm looking at France, I'm looking at Serbia. mean, they got some dynamite players, but at the same time, as global as it becomes, it's almost...

Jasper (35:53.366)
yeah.

Chad Sowash (35:54.315)
Yeah.

Dusty Baker (36:14.012)
made the black player extinct unless he's a college player, you know, because I was watching the draft yesterday, which was fine. That's seven out of the first, you know, 30 teams. Yeah, in the first round, you know, had players, but most of them were black players out of top programs, top schools, know, Wake Forest and.

you know, Tennessee, you know, and see when we were first coming up, most of the black players, unless they are from the north or west, you know, a lot of them came out of the black schools, Grambling, Southern, Bethune, Cookman, where you're wondering where are those players? You know, I know they have the HBCU Classic, but how many of those get drafted?

It's really a shame that baseball has cut the draft down to, what's it now, like 20 rounds. you know, they'll just fix one when I first started and then it went to like 60, 65, which might've been too many, but that was started. A lot of this was cut back when they contracted a lot of the minor league teams when there's nowhere for these guys, you know, to play, which

Brian Johnson (37:20.502)
27 I think

Jasper (37:30.635)
Mm.

Dusty Baker (37:40.854)
also made the independent leagues more valuable than ever.

I don't know. I just, as great as the game is and as good of shape as the game's in, on the other hand, you know, there are a lot of jobs being lost on the other hand, especially by the, for the late bloomer, you know, like, like I was a late bloomer. My son's a late bloomer. Brian was kind of a mid to late bloomer. You know what I mean? But you're second round, right? Were you second round?

Brian Johnson (38:19.574)
No, I was 16.

Dusty Baker (38:21.006)
You're 16th. OK, you're nine ahead of me. That means you're better than me.

Jasper (38:25.131)
Well, breaking news people, Brian Johnson's had a better baseball career than Dusty Baker.

Brian Johnson (38:26.368)
Yeah, right. Right.

Dusty Baker (38:29.156)
Thank you.

Chad Sowash (38:30.875)
yes. So going back to that, when we're talking about talent and being able to scout talent, first and foremost, scout it, identify it, and then pull that talent in. How much harder has it gotten or has it gotten easier to be able to really zone in on the talent that you want? And I'll just leave it at that.

Dusty Baker (38:52.602)
It's gotten harder because some of the people, you know, don't have the experience to have the eye test on what a person may become, you know? And now, every day, mean, now sometimes you're or heard that they're scouting on video or video only without going to see a person and see.

That's why I go to a football game earlier, a basketball game earlier. I want to see, you know, who's fooling around. I want to see who's good time Charlie. I want to see who the leaders are. You know, I want to see who's not shooting free throws good because he's practicing his free throws or hitting the ball the right field or working on a double play or, or, whatever. And see there's something to seeing a person and,

Chad Sowash (39:38.859)
Yeah,

Jasper (39:41.343)
Yep.

Dusty Baker (39:51.542)
A player in person versus just just scouting him over to order video or watching him play on a. You know where these trials camps where they call where where we have the showcases. I mean that they can show you what they what they can do, but they don't show you how they can combine that with the thought process to think on your feet while the games going on, which is which is number.

you know, the, you know, the first thing, but, you know, lot of the guys that played the game, aren't in the game anymore to pass down what they learned, in the past. I mean, cause you know, we came up, there were coaches that would tell you what to do, but they were always older players that showed you what to do as well as told you what to do. Cause you know, baseball players are great.

I mean, they can emulate or imitate anybody's batting stance or run or anything like that. And so it's a lot easier for me to put to action if Brian tells me something, you know, I mean, just like, you know, Hank Aaron, just tell me things, you know, I mean, and then, okay, got it. Or this, this pitch, this pitchers pattern pitching, he's doing this, he's doing that. Or watch a guy.

he gonna put his head down or whatever. And so all these little things add up to why certain organizations or certain teams win more than others.

Brian Johnson (41:34.102)
Yeah, it's a great call. One of my favorite stories was around Marcus Allen, Hall of Fame, running back the Raiders forever. And Marcus Allen ran a really slow 40 -yard dash in the combine when he was coming out of USC after he won the Heisman. were like, oh, he's going to flop. Oh, he's going to fall on the draft. And lo and behold, he comes a world -class sprinter once he gets on the field and somebody's chasing

Dusty Baker (41:39.897)
Mm

Dusty Baker (42:01.55)
Mm -hmm.

Brian Johnson (42:01.844)
And that's kind of what doesn't come out. The showcase has taken over our game, the baseball game, unfortunately. And so you can't be able to identify how guys change, throw harder, catch better, cover more ground on the outfield, hit better when there's competition at play. It's not just in a test tube, in a showcase where it's banal, where there's no action taking, there's no game on the line. So just kind of what you're talking about, Beg is.

Jasper (42:22.847)
control environment.

Chad Sowash (42:26.977)
You gotta watch tape.

Brian Johnson (42:28.904)
It's just, it's awful, it's so sterile and just an awful way to do it. And all the baseball people that will give you direct feedback back during an at bat, after an at bat in a game, in the moment, they're no longer there. The people that are there teaching are people that working, that never played before, that never have done that in that arena before. And it just, hurts the players.

Dusty Baker (42:52.57)
No, well, you know, I agree with you. mean, I remember Bill Walsh told me one time to beware the coach killer. And he mentioned a guy with the end up playing at the Cowboys. I don't want to say his name, but he said he bench pressed like 400 pounds and leg press 500 pounds and practice. Nobody could tackle him. And then, you know, run a four, five, 40.

But then the game comes, he'd have 15 carries and 30 yards. You know what I mean? And then he would go from team to team, which we've seen, go from team to team and say, hey man, I can get it out of him. And then he'll get 18 chances because physically he has the talent. But not to say he doesn't have it mentally, but he can't combine the mental and physical talent into one.

Jasper (43:27.819)
the

Jasper (43:32.553)
Yeah.

Dusty Baker (43:49.016)
You know, to, you know, to go into a direction, you know, of winning and, you know, not bragging, but I can see a kid walk in the room and I could tell pretty much if he can run, you know, the main, or I can watch some swings as, this kid can hit, or are you going to have a trouble with the breaking ball where his hands are trouble with high fastballs or whatever, or kids delivery, you know, he's going to get hurt.

If he keeps opening up and see that nowadays, if you tell somebody that and because it hadn't be, it has to be proven by numbers. And there was a couple of times when I told them and they told me my eyes a lie to me. And I was like, well, no, I think your numbers a lie to you more than my eyes.

Jasper (44:40.757)
Thank

Dusty Baker (44:46.938)
light of me. I remember one of the greatest conversations I had was with Bo Schembechler. And Bo was at Michigan and I was getting the award for the Columbus touchdown team, the club. So I was, this is after my first year of managing. So Rick, what's the name for me? Yeah, Rick Leach is talking about

Chad Sowash (44:57.036)
Mm -hmm.

Brian Johnson (45:12.608)
leaked.

Dusty Baker (45:15.071)
all the time. So I was like psyched about meeting both Schembechler, man. I was like a little kid. And so I walked up to him and I said, Mr. Schembechler, call me both. And I was like, Mr. Schembechler. he says, I said, can you help me? Because my toughest decision in spring training and my first year was who to keep as your 25th player. And I mean, that last cut, I was the last

Were you the last cut Brian? Yeah, that last cut man hurts a lot and I think it hurts them as much as it hurts the person being cut. so I said, well, how do you know? He says, then the face dusty. I said, what do you, what do you mean? Mr. Beckley? He look at him in the face and you can tell who the BS or is. You can tell who, who, you know, like who, who got some, guts and,

You know, you can tell who the kind man is. You look right in his face and you look right to his soul.

Dusty Baker (46:21.685)
And he goes, yeah, you could tell a kid with a kind face. And I've used that and I don't think I've been wrong, but maybe a couple times, he said it's in the face. And I believe that till the day I die.

Jasper (46:42.571)
That's, that's beautiful. It's in the face. think that's the best. love that. Um, but I've got sort of on a, not on a critical note, but you then become the manager of the Astros in 2020, team that is notoriously driven around analytics. think I've got the Astro ball book, read it a few times. It's very interesting to see what they've done with that. But you come into that organization to me.

It's in the face doesn't quite align with everything they try to do with the astro ball methodology, right? Or am I wrong?

Dusty Baker (47:13.261)
No, no, no, you're way too. Keep on talking, man. I'm going

Jasper (47:18.347)
But what, does that say? Okay. Let me get to a question here because you come into that organization, they are analytical driven. It's all about the analytics there. They've measured out, you know, potential success, strike rates versus, know, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. So, but how, how did they land on dusty Baker being the guy? Okay. This guy is going to win us a world series because I think they came to came to their senses.

Chad Sowash (47:18.902)
Ha ha!

Chad Sowash (47:34.679)
This is a difference in culture, right?

Jasper (47:47.945)
because Astro Ball wasn't going to give them that dynamic World Series Championship run that they were hoping to get based on those analytics solely. I think they needed a bit of, let me look you in your face.

Dusty Baker (47:59.797)
No, that's a good try.

Jasper (48:03.979)
It was a very good shot. I'll give myself some credit for that. It was a good

Chad Sowash (48:04.801)
hahahaha

Brian Johnson (48:04.943)
Hahaha!

Dusty Baker (48:09.261)
But I think it was more about the kind of putting the organization on the right track. Scandal. You know, because they had just won like the World Series year before they'd gone to the playoffs like four or five years. And usually you don't inherit a team that's on top. Most of the time you're going to get a team that's on the bottom.

Jasper (48:18.578)
Mmm. Yep.

Dusty Baker (48:38.317)
And that's the best team that I inherited out of my five teams. And so I just, think that the Lord putting in that situation that I was at the right guy for the right time, for the right need for the organization. you know, I had a great time while I was there, but it sometimes got a little difficult because I would want to look in the face.

Jasper (48:54.399)
Mm -hmm.

Dusty Baker (49:06.493)
but the guys, the numbers guys, would want you to just go on numbers only. And so there were times when I said, okay, and then I was getting some gulf, I mean, some gulf from a couple of writers in the public and stuff that knew that I was trying to combine the two because see, I've been using numbers.

Ever since I can remember, I mean, I've been using numbers when I was in high school. I said I have all my, I'm from a wristband. had all my, if I go one for two, then two for three, then what I'd be hitting. And then when I was managing, I'd go with left, right matchups, go with first batter efficiency, go with.

Bullpen runners inherited. mean, I tried to get as much information as I could. A lot of times it was off of the other team's notes because we didn't necessarily have, know, who's heard, who's hot, who's not. And so I had to tell our people to quit putting so much information in the notes because they might have somebody on the other side like me that you're just giving them free, you know, information. And so

Jasper (50:21.545)
Yeah, free information.

Dusty Baker (50:25.352)
And there were times when I knew what people wanted me to do, but I didn't think that it was right. And then my next move was to pray that it worked out because if it didn't, you're gonna catch hell for it. know what I mean? Which I don't like catching hell, if I think I'm right

from my experience, if I've seen this scenario a hundred times, but nothing is, you there are no absolutes. There are no absolutes in the numbers and there are no absolutes in, and what I think is right are my feelings with the combination of the numbers. But the way I look at it, man, if you can be right in this game, about 70 to 75 % of the time or higher,

you've kind of done your job. Now, when it gets to be 50 -50, you might just bring your coin to the dugout on your decision and flip a coin. then, so you just got to figure out what you did. Because a lot of times you can do everything right and it comes out wrong because they got a team over there that's going to try to make your decisions wrong. And there are other times when you might've been wrong.

but I'll two way, it's a home run in the night to make it look good. like I said, I enjoyed my time in Houston. It was time for me to kind of go home. Cause I really didn't want to be on the baseball field at 70 years old in the first place. That was my goal to be off. And I was off at 74 because like I said, the

Jasper (52:12.651)
Hmm.

Dusty Baker (52:23.663)
Wish for me to be there and wish for me to finally get that world series that I've been chasing.

Chad Sowash (52:33.877)
That's awesome, Dusty. So for me, I can't even think about it. I've managed sales teams and there are a hell of a lot of egos on a sales team, especially those individual contributors that are killing it that month. And it's just, you got to manage and it's a part of being able to get chemistry in a team, right? And those individuals with those big egos can be toxic. I cannot imagine, Dusty Baker, I cannot imagine.

Dusty Baker (52:45.988)
Mm -hmm.

Chad Sowash (53:01.067)
having some of the players that you've managed over the years that you have not had to manage to those egos, right? How did you do that? And did you literally in some cases have to just weed some of them out because they weren't great for the gelling of the team themselves?

Dusty Baker (53:18.862)
Well, number one, you don't have the power to weed them out and jail them out like you used to as a manager, okay? Because in the old days, the manager had some kind of relative control over his personnel. And they would say, okay, you want that guy? Okay, if he doesn't perform, it's your butt. Now, you gotta kind of take who their decision is, and then if they

Chad Sowash (53:25.727)
Yeah? Okay.

Jasper (53:27.627)
Hmm.

Jasper (53:36.255)
Mm -hmm.

Dusty Baker (53:48.215)
do well, it's still your butt. And so, yeah, as far as eagles are concerned, I gotta tell them, I was one of you guys, you know? I was one of those eagle guys, or else I wouldn't have been there, but I tried, but I learned how to kind of keep my eagle intact from Hank

Jasper (53:51.071)
Thank

Dusty Baker (54:12.866)
Cause I never saw, was lucky as a kid, I never saw Hank Aaron brag. I mean, if anybody could have bragged, it was him. And when I met guys like Sandy Koufax, I mean, and these guys and Lou Brock, these guys are the humblest superstars that I'd ever met. So I told our guys, I've been where you've been. I might not have shined as brightly or

Or as long as you did, but you know, I had my place to too. So I understand, know, you know what it's about. But the thing about it is you have to kind of have the people, you know, your personnel or your players. Like I studied, not study, but I studied the art of war and

I talked to Sadahata when I was with the Dodgers as a player and they told me that the circle of a team or life is not complete unless the greater whoever that is is equal to the lesser. Whoever that is or else the circles not complete. Granted. You know your greater players, whoever they are. You know you might have to bend the rules for him some, but you

Jasper (55:23.785)
Hmm.

Dusty Baker (55:34.217)
you try to hope, you stress to them that nobody breaks the rules. There between bending the rules and breaking the rules. You know, I've been through rules too because the sort of that certain players on the team bend the rules, you know, but you can't, but at the same time, you know, you don't break the rules. Cause if you break them, then it makes it hard to discipline the other

or 25 because they're like so and so didn't do it or so and so didn't do it. And then one guy says another guy didn't do it. Next thing you know, you have mutiny on the bounty, you know, on your team. And so, you know, you got to kind of look back on your past. And like I said, you look back on how to be as well as how not to be, because there were some things that happened in my career. I had a couple of managers

Jasper (56:04.145)
Mm -hmm.

Dusty Baker (56:27.658)
totally embarrassed me in front of everybody. I didn't think I'd be ever managing, but I recall what it was like, bad feeling that I had to be embarrassed in front of your peers. And so you try to be as fair and honest as you can with everybody and what you, and before you'll tell a lie, you don't tell them nothing, because sometimes you can't tell them.

You know, but you try not to lie to me there because if you lie to him and that word gets around that so and so is a liar quicker than quicker than anything and trust you got to have the trust of your guys.

Chad Sowash (57:08.958)
Mm -hmm.

Brian Johnson (57:13.558)
Great stuff, really appreciate it. I want to transition a little bit to your business life. You have Baker Family Wines, you have Baker Energy, and the restaurant that have in San Francisco. Do you take some of the lessons learned from sports into the business world?

Dusty Baker (57:31.739)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, definitely. I mean, you take lessons in life, you know, in into almost every facet of your life. You know, I mean, there are there are there are things there are successes, but there are also, you know, times when things aren't going so good. You know, like Baker Energy is not going quite as good as Baker Wine is right now. But like you, you persevere and try to figure

you know, like how are you gonna, you know, get out of this slump or how are you gonna do it? Because, you know, every time you're in a slump or a bad time, that's like, it's the worst time in your whole life until the next slump comes along. So Lord, I can't take this anymore. Next thing you know, you forget all about it. Things go good again. Well, you know, you got to kind of take things with the highs, you know, your highs and lows and

I just learned to let God direct me because whenever I've tried to do it on my own, that I end up screwing it up. And if I let God direct me, it may not be on my time limit that I set for myself, but always things will work out the way the Lord wants you to work out. Because see, that's been my whole

I the truth, because I was so blessed. I don't know why I was chosen to do all these things or chosen to lead. I really didn't want to lead. I wanted to just fit in like everybody else and go have a good time. But sometimes you were picked to lead and it'll behoove you and your life and happiness to just do what you've been chosen to do versus fighting, which you don't want to do.

Brian Johnson (59:30.336)
Yeah, I love that. I remember you talked about earlier with Hank Aaron saying something to you, then four or five years later it kicked in. Sometimes other stuff just kicked in the next day. But I remember early on when I used to talk to you that you used to talk about God quite a bit. But it wasn't until later on in my life where I was like, Dusty was talking about that. So I use God as a guidance counselor too. And so it's been really a cool thing for me.

Jasper (59:39.701)
Mm -hmm.

Dusty Baker (59:56.891)
But we have always lived and done all the things you're supposed to do. But my auntie who really helped me out lot, she's been gone now about 20 years. She's always asked me, she's always tell me about forgiveness. And I think that that is probably one of my downfalls. I could care grudge for like 38 years, you know what mean?

and that'll do nothing but eat you up. But then on one hand, you're asking for forgiveness, but you're not forgiven. And then the more that you are forgiven, then the more that, and I'm still working on it now. That's a tough one. And the more, yes it is. You guys got it too?

Brian Johnson (01:00:42.176)
Yeah, that's a tough one. Yeah.

Jasper (01:00:45.96)
It's a continued process.

Brian Johnson (01:00:48.159)
Yeah.

Chad Sowash (01:00:51.435)
god yes. yes. yeah.

Brian Johnson (01:00:51.512)
yeah, definitely.

Dusty Baker (01:00:52.493)
Yeah.

Jasper (01:00:53.387)
Oh, Well, Dusty, can safely say it's been a real pleasure. think we have about 100 more questions we'd like to ask you that we didn't quite get to. So we hope to get you on for Dusty the sequel. That'd be good, at least. Thank you so much for your wisdom, your time. I think I saw someone on MLB Network said that you were their favorite interview they'd ever did. And I think I'm starting to share the sentiment.

And thanks everyone for listening for Chad, Brian and me. See you next time on talent chasing