Chasing Debbie Spander

Chad (01:55.548)
Hello listeners, welcome to Talent Chasing, the podcast where we dive into real world stories from the arenas of major league sports to the boardrooms of corporate giants. Our mission is to spotlight the hidden stories behind finding, retaining, and inspiring top talent because after all, no team succeeds without great people.

Chad (02:20.338)
That's your Brian Go.

Brian (02:20.65)
I'm Brian Johnson, former Major League Baseball player and scout.

Jasper (02:34.489)
Should I wait five minutes or do Yeah, I'm Jasper Spanjaart. I'm journalist and filmmaker.

Chad (02:39.59)
And I'm Chad Sowash, recruitment industry veteran and startup advisor.

Brian (02:44.78)
Today we got a great show. We want to introduce you to Debbie Spander. May not be a household name, but that's fine. Her story is fascinating. She is formally or trained as a sports lawyer, been a sports agent for a long time, and now is the president and CEO of Inside Sports Advisors. So we'll get her to tell us a little bit more about that. But just think about it in general. Sports agents or just agents in general of media personalities or whoever it may be, it's a

male dominated industry to the utmost. So you have a woman that's been in there for a long time and in the sports world, what also tends to be male dominated in the way. So we'll hear a little bit more from her. Debbie, please tell us more about Inside Sports Advisors as we get going.

Jasper (03:26.509)
Mm-hmm.

Debbie (03:41.571)
Insight Sports Advisors is a boutique sports media marketing agency. I founded it three years ago after almost 10 years with the large sports agency. I wanted to give clients a little more personalized service. We represent a lot of retired athletes who have entered into their second careers in media, in coaching, and in front office, as well as

kind of career sports broadcasters and influencers.

Brian (04:12.78)
Yeah, wide range there. Appreciate that. You went to Stanford University. You were an athlete growing up. You were skiing across country in high school. You were a skier at Stanford University. Go to law school, come out of there. What were some of the processes that you went through as you were deciding what type of law you were going to do?

Debbie (04:39.397)
actually only went to law school to get into sports law. I spent a couple summers on Capitol Hill during Stanford and I decided that the politics and criminal law were not my thing. I worked for the public defenders there, which is an amazing program, but very depressing in that I've, it's like, I cannot do this. I always loved sports. As you know, my father's a long, long time sports writer, broadcaster from the Bay area. And I grew up

Brian (04:42.188)
Alright, there you go.

Jasper (04:42.487)
Hmm, very specific.

Chad (04:49.349)
Yuck.

Jasper (04:54.681)
the

Jasper (04:59.961)
You

Debbie (05:09.199)
going to games all the time. And I was a writer and then sports editor, football columnist at the Stanford Daily. And I really loved that world, but I also knew to kind of grow into a bigger business, I would need a legal degree. So that's why I actually chose to go to law school.

Chad (05:29.146)
I think it's funny you said politics and criminal law all at the same time. So let's...

Debbie (05:33.125)
It was two different summers, but yeah, it is kind of merged these days.

Brian (05:33.76)
Hahaha!

Chad (05:40.124)
So a little bit more about your background, your dad, obviously heavy and incredibly popular. Did that drive your motivation to get into this space?

Debbie (05:52.439)
it drove my motivation but I was introduced to sports at a very young age. mean you can go to my parents house in the Oakland Hills very near where BJ grew up and there's pictures of me on golf courses when I was like three months old, six months old. He was the golf writer for the San Francisco Chronicle and then he was the Warriors.

and other writer for the Chronicle. And then in 1979, when I was 10, he became the lead columnist for the San Francisco Examiner. So then it became everything. It became Niners, Giants, Warriors, Super Bowls, Final Fours, Indy 500s, Kentucky Derbies, and coolest for me, coolest for me was, was Olympics. So I got to start tagging along to Olympics in 1984.

Jasper (06:32.803)
Hmm.

Brian (06:35.532)
Wemble did too, right?

Jasper (06:45.593)
Really cool, 1984, wow, okay, yeah, I wasn't born yet. Someone has to fill that perspective.

Debbie (06:49.189)
Wait, on. think the dog's going to be in the chair. that okay? Okay. Go, Kelly, go. Go.

Brian (06:50.292)
Hahaha!

Chad (06:51.058)
Jasper's Dutch, that just comes out. Okay. Okay.

Jasper (06:57.41)
You

Debbie (07:08.569)
The barking should end.

Brian (07:09.644)
Is that a Labrador bark?

Debbie (07:11.685)
golden doodle But the big the 60 the 60 pound golden doodle, so yeah, she's big

Jasper (07:13.081)
golden doodlers.

Chad (07:14.77)
one of those doodles.

Jasper (07:17.305)
She's big beer. I want to ask you, Debbie, because you've, you've, you've, you just alluded to the fact that you've been in this industry for, for quite a long time. and, you know, when we talk about sports agents and in that field, I know that in Europe, at least they don't tend to have a great reputation. just to put it, but yeah, just to put it bluntly, because in soccer in particular, we have the sort of problem in Europe where

Debbie (07:24.429)
Excuse me.

Debbie (07:37.797)
You

Jasper (07:44.917)
Sports agents are like sharks over footballers that are 15, 16 years old, who wants maybe to be professionals and they're essentially pushed towards transfers or pushed towards clubs that may not be in the best interest of that individual to begin with. But the sports agent can sense the fees, can sense all of that. Okay. Putting that aside, for me, it's very interesting because you, you seem to view it from a completely different perspective, right? Could you sort of delve into the sort of people that you represent?

Debbie (07:57.113)
Right.

Debbie (08:15.397)
Absolutely, I think that view is semi-accurate and as well in the United States, especially here in basketball, because you can really tell who are gonna be professional NBA players when you're about 15, 16. And so the Hangar Honors Start 13, 14, our whole AAU program has like 1.5 million.

Jasper (08:24.78)
Hmm.

Jasper (08:29.036)
Okay.

Debbie (08:38.909)
kids participating and it's intense and it used to be, I Brian can tell you, used to play high school basketball and maybe, you know, 20 other games. Now they play a hundred games a year at 14, 15 years old and there's scouts and there's agents and there's financial advisors. So yeah, that is prevalent here as well. Some agents have a good reputation, some don't have good reputation, necessary evil. But what I do is a little different. So I represent

Chad (08:40.306)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (08:51.67)
crazy

Jasper (08:51.917)
Hmm.

Debbie (09:06.977)
athletes in their second careers. So they're retiring from football or football or tennis or baseball, NBA, and what are they going to do next? Obviously with the amount of money there is now in salaries, they don't have to do anything, but a lot of athletes still want to be involved. And the reason why Wasserman hired me 12 years ago,

Jasper (09:22.101)
Mm-hmm.

Debbie (09:36.069)
was to help athletes move into the media space because I've been an executive at Fox Sports previously and they knew I knew the media side and the other side of the industry. And so that was the original kind of goal of growing this new division. And then after a few years, we realized not everybody wants to go into media, but...

Jasper (09:58.167)
Hmm.

Debbie (09:59.429)
There's also opportunities to stay in your sport in coaching and front office, GM, assistant GM, scouting. And that's another service we can provide. So that's what I do. I am not hanging out in gyms with 15 and 16 year olds are on the pitch and kind of meet athletes on the tail end of their career.

It used to be after they retired, but now with the advent of podcasts and streaming, athletes are starting while they're still playing, kind of at the end of their career, like Draymond Green and people like that. So do have to start looking while you're still playing, but they're a little more mature. I don't have to, I don't have to meet with a lot of parents.

Chad (10:42.758)
The Kelsey Brothers, yeah.

Jasper (10:45.945)
Yeah, no, exactly. And I feel like that's, you see it happen more often now. You see, think one of the first examples that I saw was JJ Reddick, who started his podcast early, was at the tail end of his career. Now he's obviously become the Lakers head coach and he's had great success in pretty much everything he's touched. But how much preparation goes into that? Because I feel like for athletes and you see it happen here in Europe, you obviously see it happen in the States too, where they think they're the best person on the earth for about 10, 12 years.

And then they hit 34 and they pick up a bad knee injury and they never return. And you almost have to start planning as soon as you start playing because that career could be so like, if you look at major league baseball, you look at any sport, it could be so short. but what, what goes into that?

Debbie (11:30.993)
It could be actually, yeah, actually for JJ Reddick, he did start planning much earlier. I actually helped do his first pod with Yahoo in the early stages of his career when he was with Wasserman. And I knew, I mean, there's certain athletes who I know are going to be awesome in media. And he was one of them I knew. Unfortunately, he moved from Wasserman to another agency and they've been representing him since, but it's fun finding the athletes who...

Jasper (11:38.942)
Awesome. I listened to that. Yeah.

Jasper (11:47.661)
Yeah.

Debbie (11:59.685)
know that they want to talk aside from just post-game interviews. I actually wrote an article even before I got to Wasserman back in like 2011, early 2012, about like how to make the transition and to take advantage of the boot camps and the things that your leagues offer. But also,

Jasper (12:04.973)
Yeah.

Debbie (12:23.235)
You know, you need your 10,000 hours other than a few people who are just amazing. You know, as a professional athlete, you've probably gotten a hundred thousand hours of, of practice and you can't just jump in after like a few post-game interviews and become an amazing broadcaster. Now I have one client, Brian Scalabrini, who needed very little practice. He was just amazing. He jumped right in. I started repping him. think his either his first or second year.

Chad (12:31.196)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (12:33.933)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (12:44.818)
yeah.

Brian (12:44.82)
Mm-hmm.

Debbie (12:51.299)
out of the NBA. And obviously he wasn't even a starter. He did win the championship with the Celtics, but just an amazing personality and picked up broadcasting so quickly. I think we had him work with the broadcast coach once and he either like sit up in your chair, button your suit, but like the coming in and out, the talking, the breaking down the game, it was just a natural for him.

Jasper (12:57.526)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (13:05.881)
You

Debbie (13:17.077)
and the intonation. Like some people are very flat. He learned to be excitable and bring the passion to the broadcasting like the plane. And so there are people who are natural. There are other athletes who need the reps.

Brian (13:19.564)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (13:35.616)
Yeah, it's a great example. mean, we're seeing that play out with Tom Brady, right? Just very flat, very intonation piece he didn't have right away. But, you know, he'll be fine because he's going to work at it and practice it and get better at it and so forth. And there's a lot of money behind him. So they're going to make sure he succeeds, which is great. But what as far as a former athlete or even prepare or knowing that preparing for that second career or whatever it may be, what do you find is the biggest hurdle? Is it?

Debbie (13:50.243)
Yeah.

Brian (14:05.662)
the necessary narcissism of a professional athlete, right? Because they have to be focused on every aspect of what they're doing. They have to pay attention to everything that you kind of forced to be a narcissist to a certain extent, very hard to have personal relationships outside because you're married to the sport. And if your spouse is there, that's she becomes, or he becomes the, the, the extra person or the extra marital affair, if you want to call it that. So is there something in particular that you notice all this time that is one piece of the personality?

Debbie (14:28.42)
Hahaha

Brian (14:35.456)
that needs to be ironed out or managed before they can make that jump to the next career.

Debbie (14:40.697)
There's a few things. One is ego. That you're so good at your sport and you're not good at broadcasting or coaching and you have to learn again. And that's hard in your thirties when you've been the best. The second is feedback.

Jasper (14:46.777)
Hmm.

Debbie (14:56.333)
A lot of former athletes don't want the constructive criticism. They'll take it from their head coach, but they don't want it from me or from the broadcast coach. It's hard to hear. And the third is putting in hours. mean, other than Tom Brady and some other people, the money is much less than when you've been playing. literally, whether you're a pre and post game or a game broadcaster, you're there two, three hours before the game, through the game, and then another hour after the

Jasper (15:01.389)
Hmm.

Chad (15:15.793)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (15:23.566)
Yeah.

Debbie (15:26.257)
game.

And if you're on the game crew, you're you have the same travel as you had when you played an MLB or when you played an NBA. So the the schedule isn't any less. You're not with your family a lot more. You do have summers off or the off season off and but you're making less money. So it's it's really a conscious decision that this is what you want to do. Now, the positive is you can start out in podcasting radio, etc.

you can do it from your home studio.

Brian (16:01.248)
And then get your reps in.

Chad (16:01.378)
Does that make it easier? I was going to say, does that make it a lot easier now so that you can, again, get those reps in? You can just, okay, so I guess a big question is how do you personally identify talent that you want to go after and then attract that talent into your ecosystem to be able to start those hours? How do you do that?

Debbie (16:07.908)
Yes.

Debbie (16:24.869)
I mean, it's interesting, know, in the past I've made lists and gone after people, but it's hard, especially being a boutique agency, the larger agencies. I mean, a lot of them represent them as players. And so then they just move them over to their media broadcasting sites. And I don't have that opportunity because I don't have a part of the agency which is actually representing active athletes.

Jasper (16:39.353)
Yeah.

Jasper (16:50.551)
Mm-hmm.

Debbie (16:51.607)
A lot of it is through referrals, through word of mouth, it's through being known in the community and athletes who are looking to retire in the next few years or who have just retired and looking to get into the space, people will reach out directly or their friends will connect us. So just growing my reputation, keeping it hopefully stellar.

Jasper (17:15.5)
You

Brian (17:15.756)
You

Chad (17:16.026)
So what about influencers like Annie Agar? I mean, because this is an entirely new crop of individuals who are popping up and she is funny as hell. mean, and she's mainly, at least the ones that I see in my TikTok feed, is focused on the NFL. So how do you attract them? How do you actually, how do you find that kind of talent?

Debbie (17:38.319)
So I found Annie Agar during COVID when she's from the Grand Rapids, Michigan area.

She was working for the local station covering Michigan State, Michigan, and there was no sports going on. And her younger sister challenged her to create a TikTok. She's like, you don't understand TikTok. You're 22 or whatever it was. You can't do it. So it was like a challenge. So she is very funny. She really hadn't been able to use that in her local broadcast career. And she created her first TikTok.

Also Twitter, which is where I saw it, because I'm not a big TikToker, which was a fake Zoom call between Big Ten teams and

just brought out all of the stereotypes of fans being dumb and fans being over intensive and who's good and who's not. And it struck a nerve. People were looking for humor and they were looking for sports when nothing was happening. And she got 2 million views having never.

Brian (18:44.075)
Mm.

Debbie (18:45.463)
never done anything on TikTok before and it got republished on Twitter, which is where I saw it. And I was like, this is really funny. And then another client of mine is the head, I he's the editor in chief and head writer for the athletics college football vertical. And he was like, hey, I'm going to do a story on her. Cause again, there's no sports happening. gotta, you gotta find something to cover.

Jasper (19:09.847)
Yeah.

Debbie (19:13.411)
you know, let me know, you know, I'm going to talk to her. I'll see if she has an agent. And he was like, how are you doing? And she's like, my gosh, thank you so much for asking me. No one's no one has asked me how I'm doing. I'm overwhelmed.

Jasper (19:26.967)
Hmm.

Debbie (19:27.011)
you know, she'd become this media star and she didn't really know how to deal with it. And he's like, look, you should talk to my agent. You don't have to sign with her, but I think she can give you some good advice. And so we started talking and then I did a zoom with her parents because she was young and we've been working together ever since. So think that was July of 2020. And, you know, it's been fantastic helping her grow her career, which is not just TikTok and Twitter and Instagram, but she also has a full-time broadcasting job as well.

Chad (19:29.457)
Yeah.

Jasper (19:31.043)
Sure.

Jasper (19:56.441)
Hmm.

Chad (19:57.136)
Wow. So it sounds like you have to go viral on social so that you can get, you can get Debbie to pay attention to you guys. Say you better get that TikTok account going, Brian.

Debbie (20:04.197)
I'm looking, I'm always looking for, for, you know, another great sports social media influencer, but you know, it's hard because there are literally tens of thousands of people out there and I just don't have the time to pick through. But I have another, I have a few other young clients who have potential.

Brian (20:06.817)
That's right.

Chad (20:16.4)
huh.

Jasper (20:23.128)
Hmm.

Brian (20:29.12)
So great story about the TikToker that explodes and does well. It must have been similar as a young Debbie Spander looking at the reason you're going to law school. You go to law school, then you come out of law school. I would doubt there was a whole lot of female.

Debbie (20:32.548)
Yeah

Debbie (20:45.925)
you

Brian (20:46.636)
I don't want to say mentors, but people you looked up to. Were there males that were helpful in your space? Did you see an avenue for you that may not have been obvious to anybody else at that point?

Debbie (20:56.837)
Yeah, I mean, it's funny coming out of law school. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I interviewed with some law firms and I almost went to work for a tech law firm in San Francisco. And this was the early days of like the first round of tech in the late 90s. And I was like, this isn't my passion. want to, I really want to do sports. And I ended up getting connected with a really small law firm.

here in LA that was kind of the outside in-house counsel for a sports marketing firm in New York and it was run by a woman. So yes, and before that I worked for a startup sports production company actually run by three Stanford grads, one of whom I think you played football with, BJ Bill Jackson. And so he was a mentor for years. He's actually still a real estate attorney, but we had this really cool startup.

for a couple of years with Toy Cook and Larry Green. And we predicted kind of this convergence of tech and sports and created something called the Virtual Locker Room, which would bring you behind the scenes and give players handheld cameras and what happens off the field, which is the big thing now. But unfortunately, this was 1996 and there was still AOL dial-up and it just, was too slow.

But Toyo was playing for the Niners and we signed up all these Niners and we created design documents. And it was really cool to be at the forefront of this, but we were ahead of our time and then didn't make it and I had to go get a job in a law firm, but ended up working for a woman. So that was great. And then did that for a year and half. And Fox Sports was starting this thing called Fox Sports Net. And they literally were doing deals with no lawyers. And out of like,

hundreds or thousands of resumes, got hired as like lawyer number two or three there. And so that's what I did. I did deals for, I don't know, six, seven years, everything from, you know, boring things like control rooms and the production trucks to...

Debbie (23:09.377)
establishing Pac-10 properties which reestablished the Pac-10 and Pac-12 men's women's basketball tournaments to the NASCAR rights agreement to best in sports show period I mean it was just like a hodgepodge but it was great because and then

We launched Fox Sports News and 10 Fox Sports Regional Newses. And somehow I became the talent business affairs person. So I worked with the producers and the heads of all those to hire all the talent and hired 30 on air talent in three months for the 10 Fox Sports News. So I learned the other side of talent.

Jasper (23:35.299)
Hmm.

Chad (23:43.537)
Wow.

Brian (23:45.878)
So you got your reps in there at Spots for right? Yeah, so if you, and I'm sure you this question all the time, but if you come across a young female lawyer that's looking, that wants to be in sports, that doesn't know how to get there, how would you advise her? How would you guide her at this point?

Debbie (23:47.875)
I did.

Jasper (23:48.825)
Thanks

Debbie (24:09.445)
Follow your passion. There's going to be ups and downs. I used to say it was two steps forward and one step back. There are lot more women in sports now. It's really great when I go to sports lawyers conference every year, there used to be like 30 women and now there's three or 400. So it is terrific that there are so many more women in sports law. still aren't a ton of female agents. There still aren't a lot of women running teams. Amy Trask, the Raiders was the first.

Jasper (24:17.976)
Hmm.

Brian (24:27.414)
Fantastic.

Jasper (24:27.481)
Mmm.

Jasper (24:39.161)
Yeah.

Debbie (24:39.257)
The Raiders have another female president, but there are still very few and far between. And I think because of things that have happened in our country over the last eight years, it's actually become harder, not easier. There is a huge growth in women's sports, which is fantastic in offering new opportunities there, but getting to the top of running a men's sports.

Jasper (24:51.161)
Hmm.

Debbie (25:05.337)
franchise or league has still been a huge glass ceiling. But I just encourage people to follow your dream, to get internships, to get reps, to join trade associations like sports lawyers or sports marketing or whatever area you want to be in and just get, you know, put yourself out there.

Jasper (25:27.171)
Yeah, I think putting yourself out there. one of the sports agents that came to mind, that I, that I, follow through, like social media, Rachel Luba, might've heard of her, Luba sports, the agent of Trevor Bauer among a few other athletes, but how much, like you need role models, right? You need people that girls essentially can look up to and go, okay, there's a role for me in this sport. I can, I'm able to follow my passion, but do you feel like there's, there's, there's enough.

Debbie (25:37.786)
Mm-hmm.

Debbie (25:42.116)
Yeah.

Debbie (25:53.369)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (25:56.437)
Is there more time needed before we get to a space where they can have these role models? Or do you feel like that there's sufficient evidence is already there. They just need to maybe look for it.

Debbie (26:08.131)
Yeah, I mean, we're starting to get there. Clutch Sports has hired a number of women, including one of their heads of football. So there's a couple of great role models there. I believe Wasserman has some more female agents now, not exactly sure. There are more more female football, soccer agents. So there are role models. You definitely need to search them out.

Jasper (26:29.408)
Yeah.

Debbie (26:37.399)
It's, we're growing, it's just slow.

Jasper (26:42.361)
and one more for me, I wanted to ask you sort of about, about balanced ambitions, right? Because often players will get criticized for their off field fanches. Like they lose a game. Like you should have spent more time practicing. You shouldn't have spent all that time on your podcast. how do you, how do you help them sort of deal with that scrutiny? How do you sort of keep them even keeled or do you view it as your job to do that?

Debbie (26:57.78)
Hahaha.

Debbie (27:06.787)
I mean, I just handle the media side, so I'm not representing them in their on-field pursuits. They usually have a separate agent who does that. So that's not my part, but I understand if somebody has a bad game that they...

Jasper (27:09.465)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (27:15.609)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (27:19.257)
You

Debbie (27:24.601)
They may not want to do their pod that week, but on the other hand, think Draymond and some other athletes have shown you really can separate it and you can talk about the bad games and the good games. And obviously the Warriors are playing great now and Baron Davis just joined him as the cohost of this pod. And I think, you know, I think it's, as you guys know,

Jasper (27:33.036)
Yeah.

Jasper (27:42.062)
Mm-hmm.

Debbie (27:47.545)
producing, recording, editing a pod isn't like a ton of time. So I think like podcasting is a great area where athletes can grow and that the Kelseys have in the Heights, which just got a huge deal this year. I think it's like a terrific area to kind of dip your feet into media without having to take too much time away from your playing endeavors or practices, all of your meetings.

Jasper (27:59.038)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chad (28:14.17)
I look at that, but then I look at the other side of things and it is sports, but I feel like new models for content influencers are being created every day in the colossal success of Welcome to Wrexham, podcasts, Netflix, business. mean, everything that they've done around that to me seems like a business marketing masterclass. as you have watched that being in the space, what have you been able to glean out of that?

Debbie (28:27.636)
Hahaha

Debbie (28:43.683)
Well, I mean, the interesting thing of that is it was kind of an outside in deal. It wasn't, you know, like this type of a pod or what Draymond's doing. was let's have some really famous actors by a team and then create a media juggernaut around it. I really, no, I know, I know, but it's, it's moved up, right? Hasn't it moved up in, so I mean.

Chad (28:49.077)
huh.

Chad (29:01.074)
By a crappy team, not a great team. Yeah, yeah. Promoted twice.

Jasper (29:04.057)
Exactly, yeah. Yeah, it's moved up. Yeah, they've been... Yeah.

Debbie (29:09.825)
they've put resources into the team and they've put resources into the media, which it probably didn't have. they've, you know, this is kind of the new way is like, hey, let's marry a on the field team and a television show and a podcast. Now, if you or I did this, it probably wouldn't be nearly as popular as

when you have a famous actor doing this or they change the spelling of names for it and you've really got like huge agency and huge marketing behind it. mean, everywhere I drove in West LA, I didn't even know what it was at first. I'm like, what's Wrexham? There were billboards everywhere. They did a fantastic job.

Chad (29:47.954)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (29:53.113)
You probably weren't the only one.

Chad (29:55.825)
Yeah.

Chad (30:00.026)
Yeah, well, I mean, the thing is for me, though, is it was interesting because they bought a crappy team, had been, I mean, and they've been promoted twice. And then you see J.J. Watt buy into a team that's in the Premier League, that's now in the Championship League, right? It's like it's everybody's putting their money in these incredibly expensive ventures instead of taking a look at what can we build from the ground up. So, I mean, for me, again, it's a business kind of like marketing masterclass.

Debbie (30:05.731)
You

Chad (30:30.062)
When you start to get these individuals into, whether it's an influencer or it's somebody who's currently an athlete into podcasts, what is the, I guess what's the run-up time? How many episodes do you have them get into it before you know, you know, they could be the monotone Tom Brady or, and they need a lot of help versus they get on the mic and they're just rocking the mic. What kind of like, how many episodes does that usually take for you?

Debbie (30:59.939)
Not that many, mean, I don't know if you know, but Annie started a podcast this year on Wondery called The Offensive Line. And by the third or fourth episode, I could tell it was going to be really good. The bigger issue with her pod is she doesn't have a permanent co-host. So they're looking to book a co-host every single week, which that kind of changes the dynamic because some are former players, some are media members, some want to hog the mic away from her. So that's a little different. have another just retiring NFL player.

Chad (31:05.511)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (31:24.153)
Sure.

Debbie (31:29.953)
who was going to play this year but got cut for salary cap reasons. So he's doing pods two nights a week actually live in the morning, your guys time live after Thursday night football and after Sunday night football called first and pod Patrick Peterson. And so again, it's getting out there and doing it and it's been a great, great opportunity for him.

Jasper (31:45.89)
yeah.

Brian (31:54.032)
Yeah, it's interesting the point that you bring up, Chad, as far as, you know, not because part of the problem of being a professional athlete and success in one area, as we talked about, doesn't mean you're going to be great in another year. And the problem is, as you're trying to find that new area, you're going to expand a whole lot of capital trying to figure out what your best spot is. So I can see the desire to catch some that catch onto something in our technical world now that's already, you know, been invented or whatever. It's already been.

Debbie (32:21.955)
Yeah.

Brian (32:22.468)
The foundation is already there. But I want to back up to you personally again, Debbie, is that, you I knew you and I grew up together, essentially. I knew your dad is kind of a celebrity and I got to know him personally at one of your birthday parties way back when where he he drilled me about 10 different questions about sports. And we kind of, you know, that kind of became my focus versus the birthday party. But he always came across to me in

Jasper (32:48.153)
Hahaha

Brian (32:52.36)
reading his stuff in the last 30 years. just sports writers, just writers in general, strike me as kind of a very much of integrity, very much finding the truth, very much telling the story and getting it right. Is there anything that you've taken from your dad's example, other than just being around sports? Anything else that you've taken into your style or the way you look at things that you got from your dad?

Debbie (33:20.293)
Absolutely, mean he taught me the value of hard work. mean, sports writers until now and still telling few never made a lot of money and he was out there grinding all the time. I remember weeks in high school when I would not see him, when we would both be home but I would leave the house at like 720 for my A period class in leadership or whatever it was and then get back after practice around, let's say track practice, get back around 536 and he'd be covering the Giants.

Jasper (33:50.509)
Hmm.

Debbie (33:50.567)
and games wouldn't be over till 10.30 and then interviews and then writing. He would be home till midnight and I'd be asleep and then, you know, same thing. would always try to have late family dinners like around eight just so people could see each other, but it depended on the sport. was sometimes it wasn't possible and he obviously traveled a lot as well. So yes, mean, hard work, being a person of your word. If something was off the record, it was always off the record with him. There are a lot of media members who say it's off the record and then they'll write it anyway.

did. He is actually in year I think 63 of his career. He still has a site. In fact, he wrote about the Warriors the other night. I can send it to you. Something interesting he just he writes. He's going blind. My mom has to help him write but his mind is still 100 % there and he still breaks everything down really well. just like being inquisitive, asking questions.

Jasper (34:21.227)
yeah.

Chad (34:32.775)
Wow.

Jasper (34:32.889)
You

Jasper (34:46.893)
Hmm.

Debbie (34:47.139)
His, as we discussed, his were always more about like, is the team winning and losing? Why are you starting this person over that person? And I decided to go to law school because I wanted to know more of the business side of sports. But it really pushed me into, you know, not just hard work, but being inquisitive and asking why. And even now I try to read like three or four newsletters a day to keep up on everything going on.

Brian (35:12.076)
and not to be outdone, I know also, having known your family well, that your mother is the backbone of your family. Please tell us a little bit about her and what you've taken from her and used as a part of your style nowadays as well.

Debbie (35:19.478)
Hahaha!

you

Yeah, absolutely. My mom, Liz Spander, is amazing and she kind of held everything together when my dad would be on the road for half of the year and raising two kids who were very involved and in all these sports. And now that I have a daughter in high school, I realized like the driving is crazy. I'm like, one year till she gets her driver's license now. So like the driving's crazy and where Brian and I grew up.

there wasn't a lot of public transportation. We were up in the hills and like you had to have a parent drive you to practice unless it was right after school, pick you up, couldn't take the bus home or there was no subway or metro. And we always had dinner on the table that she made until junior high, started helping with dinner. But yeah, I mean, she's fantastic, family trips.

Jasper (35:59.533)
Hmm.

Debbie (36:18.265)
kept everyone together. She went back to work full time when I was in junior high middle school as a travel agent. She'd been a Spanish teacher before that. you know, we took fantastic trips, a lot of them around my dad's sport. So, I mean, I remember one time I was 10, we went to New York where I guess the US Open golf was.

was in New York and New Jersey. We then went to Boston because the A's were playing the Red Sox. And then we took a vacation, the third part, the third part where we actually went to DC and did the Capitol and Mount Vernon and all that. So it all be organized. And we went to the Barcelona Olympics and we went, you know, all over the world. So she's amazing. She's she's still keeping everything together. Art was honored by the UCLA Daily Bruin.

Jasper (36:46.371)
Heh.

Chad (36:57.808)
Wow.

Jasper (37:01.241)
you

Debbie (37:09.373)
two weeks ago as the alumni of the year and she helped organize that whole thing. They were down in LA with me for a week, so that was terrific.

Jasper (37:15.233)
Wow.

Brian (37:18.73)
Yeah, that's fantastic. Love that. I'm glad we got the gave her some airtime too. I didn't want to I didn't want her to think get mad at me because we didn't think about her. So I want to make sure I put her in there because she is definitely dynamic and I always have enjoyed all my interactions with her over the years. Transition a little bit here. You run a boutique sports agency. You work for larger sports agencies.

Jasper (37:24.527)
Hehehehe

Chad (37:27.418)
Hahaha

Brian (37:46.752)
What's the difference? Well, why should I go with you versus an agency that has a thousand people working?

Debbie (37:54.601)
You know, it's personal choice, but I think boutique agencies really are able to service the clients when they need it. I was taught by the great Arne Tellem, who now is in Detroit running Piston Sports and Entertainment. And he taught me that you are here for your clients and you need to be able to get back to them within 24 hours and you need to be able to give them options and...

Jasper (38:12.185)
Hmm.

Debbie (38:21.899)
whether or not they take a deal, whether it's a plane deal or a media deal or a coaching deal is their choice. And you need to like prepare everything the best you can and give them that option. And it just seems like with some of these bigger agencies and most of them have investors, some of them are public now, it's all about driving revenue and not about what's best for the client.

Brian (38:45.74)
Yeah, just as a quick follow up, remember some advice I was given early on as a player is that when you get with the big groups, a lot of times there's ulterior competing influences. I was told have one person do your agent, one person do your taxes, one person do your finances, one person do your marketing, so on and so forth. Would you agree with that philosophy?

Debbie (39:09.797)
Absolutely. mean, if you're most agencies now have have a marketing arm so you can have your marketing agent in-house if you want. I have some retiring NFL players who do have separate marketing agents, PR, all of that. I think what is key is you need to keep your finances, your business management firm and your financial advisors completely separate.

Jasper (39:24.941)
Hmm.

Debbie (39:35.203)
You do not want that in-house. is a different business and that can really cross the line and lead to problems if your agency is providing those services as well.

Jasper (39:36.27)
Hmm.

Jasper (39:46.795)
You just said something interesting. You need to get back to them in 24 hours. As someone that you're constantly helping others to succeed essentially. How about you? I'm wondering what motivates you to keep pushing forward in your career.

Brian (39:46.924)
it.

Debbie (39:59.682)
You

Debbie (40:04.453)
I love what I do. love helping my clients. I love helping them get their first jobs, getting bigger jobs, getting bigger deals. When they're happy, it makes me happy. That is really what motivates me on a day-to-day basis.

Jasper (40:21.389)
That's awesome. No, it's, I mean, I can, I can imagine it's like, you can get to a point where you're like, okay, I'm on the sofa. I'm finally watching Netflix at nine and the guy texts me and I actually, feel like I need to get back to that girl or guy. it's like, but you never have that moment where you go, geez. want, I wish I did something else for a bit.

Debbie (40:30.149)
Ha ha ha ha!

Chad (40:30.866)
Hahaha

Debbie (40:44.485)
Only on the weekends when people are, if like there's some weekends I know I'm gonna work when there's a big event or I'm at a conference or whatever and I'm prepared for it. Like sometimes I wanna actually be able to see my family. And so those weekends are tough. mean, it's obviously almost 10 a.m. here. So I've actually gotten a bunch of texts I need to reply to when we get off, cause it's, middle of day on a Friday here. But in general.

Chad (41:03.27)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (41:03.34)
You

Debbie (41:09.261)
In general, don't. The person that bothers the most is my daughter. Like we try to have a no phones at the dinner table rule. She's like, mom, why aren't you talking to me? You're answering clients. Mom, pay attention to me. So, you know, I feel like I have a pretty good division of labor, but she doesn't.

Brian (41:20.103)
Hahaha

Jasper (41:20.591)
Yeah.

Chad (41:27.474)
Ha!

Brian (41:27.893)
Hahaha

Chad (41:30.46)
So last but not least, haven't talked about name, image, and likeness. So NIL, how has it changed the entire landscape? Because it seems like it has, but it also seems like it's the Wild West out there. Can you tell us a little bit about that, especially from your perspective?

Debbie (41:45.443)
I mean, both statements are correct. It's changed the landscape for some high school and all top college athletes for football, for men's basketball, women's basketball, gymnastics, volleyball, not as much for most other sports other than the fact that.

the bigger sports are kind of sucking the oxygen out. mean, so NIL means name, image and likeness, but if you back up, it basically is just your right of publicity. It's marketing sponsorship appearances. It's things that have been going on in sports for years and years, but now...

college athletes and high school athletes in some states are able to be paid for this and not just have the schools, the conferences, the NCAA take all the money for the marketing of them. This has obviously opened up revenue streams, which is terrific. My husband Mark Eisenberg and I have fought for this for years. We believe that the $8 billion Big Ten Rights Agreement is built on the backs of the athletes who are...

Chad (42:49.095)
Yeah.

Debbie (42:51.007)
on TV, on streams, on radio. This is why the networks and the media companies are paying the money. It's for the games. It's not for the athletic department and the conferences organizing them. We're in this weird period right now, however, where pay for play is still illegal. So these collectives have formed and they're paying the players to...

Jasper (42:59.554)
Yeah.

Debbie (43:16.579)
go to school by not going to school. They're paying them for, okay, if you sign this deal with us, come to the school we support, then you'll make some appearances and sign some autographs and we'll get you $100,000, $500,000, whatever it is. Meanwhile, you still have the true NIL, which is name, image and likeness, which is marketing deals, which is...

kind of fewer and fewer for male athletes. The women are taking advantage of it as you, I don't know if you follow the women's college basketball, but a number of the stars last year were really able to cash in. And now you've got Gigi Watkins at USC who's got amazing deals as well. It's really focused on the collectives at this point. There's a bunch of lawsuits going on which have been consolidated under the House case.

Jasper (43:48.536)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (43:48.721)
Mm-hmm.

Debbie (44:07.761)
Once there's a house settlement that will provide for somewhere between 20 and $23 million a year, athletic departments will have to give 20 % of revenues to the athletes, although there's some caveats, additional scholarships will count against that. But if you crunch the numbers, even if you...

Jasper (44:24.121)
Hmm.

Debbie (44:27.139)
give 15 million of that to the football team, to the 65 main players on the football team, that's $250,000, which a bunch of football players are making more than that now. So collectives are still gonna exist. There's still gonna be side deals. That'll give a little bit more, I guess, guidance and specificity, maybe a little bit.

Chad (44:29.906)
Mm-hmm.

Debbie (44:49.727)
less of the Wild West. mean, I've already read articles that now that the Republicans have basically swept into power starting in January, that maybe they will get an antitrust exemption to not have athletes be employees, but there's still some NLRB cases. I mean, it's going to take a while to sort itself out. And, you know, I think the upside is that college athletes can make money now and not just have

Chad (45:10.087)
Mm-hmm.

Debbie (45:17.791)
scholarship and you can ask Brian you know what happened for trying to make extra money when you were in school especially when you were playing on two teams at the same time. I mean you have no time and there's no spending money.

Brian (45:26.826)
Yeah.

Jasper (45:27.193)
He would have been so rich though, Brian.

Brian (45:30.38)
So this NL name, image and likeness stuff, and you talk about the NLRB, National Labor Relations Board, the antitrust exemption means that there's a Sherman Act in the United States where you have to follow certain rules of corporate America if you are an employer to your employees. You can't just do this or that. Sports world doesn't have those. Baseball in particular has an antitrust exemption.

But I don't know enough. That's about all I know about all that. But but just but just to clue in the rest of our viewers and maybe listeners. But my question specifically to you, Debbie, is what is utopia? I mean, the Ed O'Bannon case happens. NCAA says, no, I'm not giving up any money. No, I'm not getting. OK, fine. I have to give up money. OK, fine. We'll do it. I'm just going to throw all the money out off off the top of the NCAA building. And the athletes are going to have to go around and kind of grab pieces of dollars for themselves.

Debbie (46:01.381)
That's good.

Jasper (46:02.561)
You

Brian (46:29.302)
So what we have is a very small percentage of athletes making a ton of money and the majority making nothing. So what I hear you say is with these new lawsuits going through that there would be a median or be a normal salary for lack of a better term for all the athletes. And then you can get some more on top of that if you are a star. I describing that accurately? And is that where we need to go from your point of view?

Jasper (46:34.585)
Hmm.

Debbie (46:50.117)
Correct.

Yes, yes, you are describing it accurately. However, it will be up to each athletic department how they divide the money. So will it only go to football and men's basketball, football, men's basketball, women's basketball? Are there other sports? I mean, I guess on the positive side, there will not be restrictions on number of scholarships in baseball and water polo and some of the other ones that have had to give out one third scholarship. So.

Brian (47:01.302)
Hmm.

Jasper (47:01.305)
Uhhh...

Jasper (47:10.361)
Hmm.

Debbie (47:20.387)
let's say some great baseball players couldn't afford to attend Stanford. Now they'll be able to give full scholarships to everybody on the baseball team, everybody on the softball team. So that's a bonus. And I see schools like Stanford and dividing up the money a little more fairly, but it'll be completely up to the athletic departments on how it's divided. So that's still up in the air. And I guess the other...

Jasper (47:25.133)
Yeah.

Chad (47:48.103)
Wow.

Debbie (47:49.615)
thing your listeners, followers should realize is this is going to drag out at least another season. Everybody was hoping it would be settled for the start of the 25-26 football season, school season. But right now, the next hearings aren't until April, which means I just, the end of the school year is technically June 30th and the next one starts July 1st. I just don't see any way that this is going to be settled by June 30th.

Jasper (48:14.221)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (48:18.092)
So still sounds like a mess. seems like there should... Yeah.

Jasper (48:20.217)
What is in the mess in the United States, Brian?

Debbie (48:20.646)
That's good. Yeah.

Chad (48:21.778)
You don't say. good point.

Brian (48:27.336)
It seems like, forget my partners on here, they can be distracting. But it seems like the best way to do it is kind of how I describe it. Everybody gets something and then the other people get stuff on top of that. Is that what you and Mark foresaw when you were fighting for this to actually happen? What was the model? What was the endpoint that you think if you had a crystal ball,

How would you design it today?

Debbie (48:58.917)
Well, we would love to see collective bargaining have, whether it's the NBPA. Yes, it doesn't mean you have to become employees. The Hollywood trade, the SAG-AFTRA, the writer's union, you are not employees of them. You do not have to be an employee, but you do have a body negotiating on your behalf.

Brian (49:01.137)
there we go. And that means they have to unionize first? Okay.

Debbie (49:23.02)
and then you accept those terms to play. And I think the other positive of this is that you agree in exchange for whatever percentage of revenues your team is getting, or all the athletes are getting, that you're gonna play at this university, for this athletic department, for three years.

And then you're not gonna have, like, I don't know if you followed it, but USC just demoted Miller Moss, whose mother went to Stanford with me, to back up quarterback this week, and he entered the transfer portal already four days later.

Brian (50:01.504)
Yeah, I didn't even think about the whole transport portion of this. That muddies up everything.

Jasper (50:03.967)
It's a crazy environment.

Chad (50:05.306)
Welcome to.

Debbie (50:05.645)
So it's been, there's no pay for play, but it's really been used to lure athletes into the transfer portal and to go to the highest paying school. And so maybe if there's collective bargaining, you actually agree to play. I don't know about basketball because you're only required to play one year before you're drafted, but for football and baseball where you need to play three years, know, maybe there's a quick pro quo and you stay at that school.

Chad (50:11.484)
Yeah.

Chad (50:36.434)
Wow, wow.

Brian (50:36.918)
Do you feel like the NCA doesn't really want this to succeed just as they could say, told you so and maybe fall back to giving them all the money? Or am I reading that wrong?

Debbie (50:40.613)
Absolutely. Well, I mean, they created the term student athlete to force amateurism. Back in the 1800s, like the first known competitive promoted event was a regatta between, I can't remember, Harvard and Yale, Princeton and Harvard Yale, but it wasn't in Boston.

Chad (50:41.476)
It feels like it. Yeah, it feels like it.

Jasper (50:50.029)
Yeah.

Debbie (51:06.711)
It was in Maine and it was sponsored by the railroads and the hotels to get people to vacation there. So from day one, the schools and I don't know if there was an MCA yet, but they've been making money off of the athletes and they've been forcing student athlete amateurism status on the athletes. So allowing them to share in the upside is a great thing, but it's just not being implemented very well to date.

Jasper (51:15.052)
Hmm.

Chad (51:35.75)
Wow. Wow. Well, that being said, a quick pivot. Last question. most, most serious question. are you a sick of the Jerry Maguire show me the money movie clip is the rest of the world is.

Debbie (51:47.813)
I mean, I don't get shown the clip a little bit when I left the bigger agency and started my own. I did have to go through the very, very similar of experience of sitting on the couch and dialing all the clients and seeing who has stayed and who was leaving and the good news.

Jasper (52:06.969)
Ha ha ha!

Chad (52:08.764)
Did you take a goldfish?

Debbie (52:10.981)
I didn't have a goldfish, I still don't have a goldfish. More than one client came with me, which was great. And I've been called Geraldine McGuire more than once.

Jasper (52:12.611)
Yeah

Brian (52:13.591)
You

Brian (52:20.236)
Hahaha!

Jasper (52:20.493)
That's awesome.

Chad (52:23.804)
Well, that my friends is Debbie Spander. She is the founder and CEO of Insight Sports Advisors. So Debbie, if somebody wants to connect with you, maybe have a little conversation about what they do next, or maybe they're an influencer, where would you send them?

Debbie (52:47.589)
Well, I would not send them to Twitter because Twitter shut down my account for some reason although there is actually there's still Insight Sports Advisors so they can DM me on Insight Sports Advisors or Dspander on Instra. I am in the process of launching Dspander on Blue Sky and or Dspander at Insight Sports Advisors.com

Chad (52:53.714)
Ooh.

Jasper (52:53.732)
Oooh!

Chad (53:12.87)
All she needs is a TikTok kids. All she needs is a TikTok. Excellent. Thanks so much for joining us, Debbie and Brian. Thanks for bringing Debbie on Jasper. It's time for you to go to bed. It's past your bedtime. We'll see you next time. I'll see you next time listener.

Jasper (53:13.409)
Awesome.

Debbie (53:15.289)
hahahaha

Jasper (53:25.529)
Cheers guys! Thanks Debbie.

Debbie (53:25.813)
Thanks very much for having me. Thank you.