Breakdown Doncic & Davis: Understanding Talent

Chad (00:14.037)
He did it again!

Jasper (00:15.4)
my god.

Chad (00:18.122)
Every time.

Hello listener and welcome to another episode of Talent Chasing, a podcast that dares to ask the question, what do sports and the office world have in common? The answer, as it turns out, quite a lot to be quite frank. Join us as we aim to bring real world stories from the world of sports and athletics to the confines of office and corporate talent. I'm Chad Sowash, a recruitment industry veteran, tech startup advisor, and investor.

Jasper (00:51.216)
Holy shit, that's a big... Okay, I'm Jasper Spanjaart. I'm a journalist and filmmaker, a bio that's not as extensive as chat, but hey, we got to make a difference here. So today we are delving into something that's sort of shaking up the NBA world right now. And we thought it has a few fascinating parallels to the corporate landscape, the Luka Doncic trait to the Los Angeles Lakers. So here's a franchise player.

sort of, I guess you could describe him as a generational talent, especially, you know, in Europe, we were thinking many European fans would idolize the guy. and he's just being moved, all of a sudden, I think it's probably the number one trait that took the world by surprise. don't think it's a trade like this has happened in the last couple of years. I know, I support a few teams that have traded their players and have signed players, but a trait like this,

Yeah, it sort of got me thinking about how organizations handle their top performance and when does it make sense to let go of one of your bright stars, right?

Chad (01:56.993)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now that is interesting. Obviously, you we talk about it a lot in sports, but it happens in the business world too. So we often see the, you know, almost religious attachment to keeping, you know, quote unquote, our guys. But sometimes the, you know, the bold move isn't holding on. It's letting go, right? So, you know, the Mavericks, the...

Jasper (02:12.506)
Yeah.

Jasper (02:19.1)
It's letting go. Oh, that was a bit, that was poetic.

Chad (02:25.067)
Maverick's Trading Dodge, I mean, that's like a tech company watching their star engineer top sales exec walk away, which happens, right? Which happens. The question isn't just about the talent you're losing, but it's what you're gaining in return and how that fits the long-term strategy.

Jasper (02:33.86)
A lot. Yeah.

Jasper (02:43.708)
Yeah. And I think that's exactly what we're going to try and unpack today. when, when, when does it make sense to trade your MVP? But I think it'd be good to sort of dive into some of the details. I know we get caught up in some of the details because we're massive nerds and we just, we can talk about this stuff for 24 hours trades. someone would try to acquire straight, if someone willing to pay for it. Um, but, um, so you take a look at Don Cheech, who's a, who's a 25 year old superstar, right? Um, you look at the Mavericks.

Chad (02:51.511)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (03:10.871)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jasper (03:13.628)
a sort of franchise in Dallas, based in Dallas, obviously that isn't, I mean, they're not one of the biggest franchises in the world by any means. But when they, when they drafted Don Cic, they became extremely relevant. think Don Cic, I'll have to look at some of the details, but I think Don Cic jersey sales are through the roof ever since he's been a part of the NBA. Like he was great in in the Euro, Euro basketball league.

but, but it's insane sort of the, the, the, he captivated audience from, from the get go, right? He was a superstar. He is a superstar. This guy's 25 years old. So if, if he were to be traded, you expect like a general generational wealth to come back into the Mavericks franchise, but that's not what happened. You expect like multiple first round picks. Like, honestly, if someone would have asked me a year ago, Dallas Mavericks trading Luca Donci, I would have no, wouldn't happen.

Chad (03:49.047)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (04:10.864)
But okay, let me come up with a realistic proposal. Yeah, that'd be like 10 first round picks easily. Like it'd be an insane level of talent or future picks drafts that you would have to get back. That is not what happened. He was traded for a nearly 32 year old injury prone Anthony Davis, albeit a great player. Like one of the NBA's great plays.

Chad (04:25.367)
Well, what happened? What happened?

Chad (04:32.887)
yeah. He's been there for over a decade though. He's been...

Jasper (04:36.47)
He's been there. He's been, yeah, he's been in the NBA for a long time. He's very, very good at what he does. He is not Luka Doncic. Like, okay, completely different position. Like Luka Doncic is your point guard, is the guy orchestrating your offense. He's a decent defender. Anthony Dave is primarily sort of power forward, you know, gets to rebounds. It's got a decent shot on him. Very, it's just very good player, but he's not like, he's not that level of superstar. He is not.

Chad (04:55.191)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (05:05.66)
25 years old anymore. And this guy is injury prone. And it's like, this is all you get. And I think they threw in the first round pick and another, I don't know, just scrap player. That's what you get for your superstar. I wasn't, if it had been fair, like I just don't, I don't know why you make the deal. Okay. Sorry to geek out. I'll do it again. We'll get, we'll dive into this five minutes obsession. I just, I just don't get the deal. I just don't get it.

Do you? Obviously, you saw the news break. You got a notification on your phone. You were like, what?

Chad (05:41.599)
Yeah, I didn't get it. I thought it was a joke to be quite frank. when it all comes down though, you you have to wonder whether it's this super max contract that the NBA is trying to like push back on. And so are the Mavericks, which is it's, it's interesting because you're right. Usually you're looking for a balance of value that you get back when you give it away and it doesn't look like the Mavericks.

Jasper (05:46.01)
yeah.

Chad (06:09.473)
They were looking at trying to find a balance for that value. They were literally just trying to get rid of that dollar amount, that perspective super max that would have come. So, you've got to ask yourself, how's this going to hurt the organization? Much like losing, as we'd said, a top programmer or a top salesperson, the thing in the sports world though, is you can get something back for that.

On the corporate side of the house, if you lose them, you're screwed. I mean, it's a zero sum. You've lost it all. Sorry. Have a nice day. Right? So we've seen, and we see a lot on the corporate side where if you're working with bigger companies, they have salary bands, you can only make so much. And then a top talent, top level performer might go to a startup and make twice as much. Right? Or they might go across the street.

Jasper (06:41.286)
They're gone.

Chad (07:07.799)
to a competitor and make twice as much, right? The thing is, and tell me what you think about this. There's been research that demonstrates that you should only stay at a job for only a couple of years because those who actually quote unquote job a hop, which everybody said was bad, apparently they said it was bad because they knew you'd make more money and they didn't want you to make more money. That people who job hop actually make 20 % more after the hop.

Jasper (07:36.41)
Hmm. Yeah.

Chad (07:38.109)
After the hop, just one hop, then the person who is in the same specific position. So you think in this case that Luca would be making more money, number one, and that would be good for Luca. The move would be good, but in this case, it doesn't look like it's good for the maths.

Jasper (07:57.916)
If I can just pivot back to what you just said, I think you made a really important point in terms of how we see loyalty in the job market versus, okay, yeah, this guy is going to go after a few years, he's going to take 20 % more in his salary and we might even hire him back. Right. That's the most obvious one to me.

But I think we've come to a time and it is a very important time where the key word has been retention for so many years. Like when you talk to people in the HR space that or even the recruitment space, all they talk about is recruitment with an eye on retention. But no one is willing to pay for the retention is what amazes me. It costs so much money to bring in agencies or to just hire new people, bring on recruiters.

Chad (08:28.755)
Mm-hmm. yeah.

Chad (08:37.687)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chad (08:43.216)
yeah, when you lose somebody.

Jasper (08:45.18)
Even if we're going to parallel it to executive search, you're going to spend crazy amounts of money for just people, for you to have people looking for new talent when you can just take care of talent in a better way. And for me, I found it is just, it's the dumbest thing I think in today's labor market by far. The fact that we can have people that we're so happy with people that we value people that we appreciate in whatever role they do. And it's like, yeah, but

Chad (08:53.783)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (09:14.26)
Sorry, you've come to the max of your salary bands. So yeah, we might be able to give you like an inflation correction of 3%. Would you be happy with that? And we expect them to go, yeah, let's do that for another year. No, why would they? Why should they? They can just go elsewhere, pick up 20 % and then do whatever they want, stick there, stay there. But it's going to be, it feels like it's Groundhog Day.

but it's so self-inflicted by all these companies. Just have a better retention policy. Have a better strategy. Know the role, know the person and know what that person would have to make, would go and make somewhere else. And if you, if you've got certain key positions in your company that you, you are fully aware of that they are being kind of be headhunted, do something about it. Like don't wait because they're going to get approached and they're going to get poached. It's going to happen.

Everyone knows it, but it's like, yeah, let's let's just give him bit of inflation correction and like, yeah, we can give you three maybe week. Maybe we can give you three percent and maybe like a slightly better lease car. No, just improve the deal as if you're recruiting a new member of staff. It should be that easy, but somehow it's not.

Chad (10:22.849)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (10:32.289)
So one of the things that I love about Moneyball, and I hate that Brian's not here because he would just be grinding his teeth. He'd be grinding his teeth. Is that they really were focused on, Billing Bean was focused on how do you buy wins, right? And in this case, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever what Dallas did with the Lakers in buying wins, right? Number one.

Jasper (10:37.564)
He'd been all over it,

Chad (10:59.807)
Now going back to the corporate side of the house, we do buy wins and losses. That's called revenue, right? If somebody's building a new product and they get it out faster, right? If somebody's customer service and they're actually retaining more of your customers and expanding wallet share, right? If you have salespeople, if you have product people, if you have marketing people and they all touch the bottom line, they do touch the bottom line. The problem that we have

Jasper (11:13.446)
Yep. That's revenue.

Chad (11:25.769)
is that when we take a look at these sports teams and we see that they're buying wins and losses, how they're actually looking at as a business, we don't do that in talent acquisition or talent management. We don't say, this individual actually provides X amount of revenue to the bottom line in this manner, right? Whether it's product, whether it's development, no matter what it is, we don't do that.

So this is where we should be looking at sports teams and say, okay, look, they're looking at how they can actually buy wins and losses, right? And that's not just athletes, that's also support staff, right? So we're buying support staff. And this is one of the things that the Mavericks did when, oh shit, Mark Cuban took over is they doubled their support staff and they had a coach.

Jasper (12:12.806)
Cuban?

Chad (12:20.727)
per player, right? How did they think they were going to get to that next level? There are a couple of different things. First off, they needed good talent. They didn't have that yet. They were starting to get there. But what was another thing that was just a great thing to have? Your own coach helping you get better every single day. No other team was doing that. So it's one of those things where it's like, how do you, as a company, as a company, take a look at

your people, develop your people, retain your people. It's not all about that money that is coming into their salary every year, right? It is, that is part of it because we are underpaid. If you take a look at wages over the last 40 years, CEO pay has gone up 1500 % and the rest of us are flatlined with fucking inflation, right? So we are all getting screwed. Totally get that. But we also have to take a look as leaders

Jasper (13:03.419)
Hmm.

Jasper (13:10.822)
Yeah.

Chad (13:17.247)
What can we do from a support standpoint to make sure that, you're kicking ass taking names, you're knocking the cover off the ball, but guess what? You can do better. What's next? It's not a fucking ping pong table, okay?

Jasper (13:28.412)
No, exactly. you, you, I think you've hit it on the nail because it's yeah. Part of it is money. Yeah. And if you can get 20 % elsewhere, you're to go because 20 % is all out of money in this shops market. Like you'd be crazy not to for your family, for your, for yourself. Like it's a no brainer, but like to me, I always, the other thing that's always surprises me is the lack of just development meetings that managers have with their personnel.

Chad (13:38.719)
Yes.

Chad (13:43.093)
Hmm?

Chad (13:53.313)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (13:53.476)
Like, yeah, we do it like maybe once a year at the end of the year, we just scrap it in between new years and Christmas. have like a quick one hour like call just about, yeah, how's it going? Yeah, Joe, you're happy. Yeah, Joe's happy. Okay. Scratch still. No, like take pride in your development of your own people. Like I was speaking to a great example, actually. I was in Sri Lanka last week and,

Chad (13:58.774)
Yes.

Jasper (14:19.12)
Got to meet a few guys who work for Brompton bicycles, know, the unique folding bikes in the UK, everyone in London absolutely loves them. and rightly so they're quite cool. But now, now, so one of the key engineers on, developing the e-bikes is a guy who just worked his way through, like through the ranks. Now he's got a key engineering role. He's overseeing a team in Sri Lanka, 13 people before, and he just started eight years ago from the ground up. He just was start working in the factory.

Chad (14:24.673)
Yeah, yeah.

Jasper (14:48.25)
And it's like, they clearly saw something in the guy and they were like, okay, let, let us help you get to the next level. Let, let us help and do that time and time again. Don't just be satisfied with one like, okay, yeah, we've promoted this guy a few years back. That that's our proof of concept here of how we internally develop. No, like continuous development that we can, we can keep talking about this, but the world and the companies and the, the enterprise are out, out there. They need to start seeing it that you.

Chad (14:57.953)
Yes.

Jasper (15:17.904)
You can't just get away with two meetings a year where you say, well, yeah, Joe's doing a fantastic job. No, what on earth is it that Joe wants to do in his life and help him get there? Like, and if Joe sometimes, and I feel like it's sort of with my generation, the generation after me, it's sometimes it is a bit of a touchy feely point because they don't necessarily always know what they want to do, but then you need to help them, educate them.

Chad (15:26.42)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Chad (15:42.113)
Yeah.

Jasper (15:45.614)
on what are the options? What is it that you can go and do? You need it. for me, know HR people will usually go, well, we just don't have the time for that to do that every month or managers will go, but you have to think of a smarter way of approaching it because it costs far too much money to just keep trying to recruit people for all these different positions, whether it's a factory worker or if it's someone actually doing engineering stuff at the high end level.

Chad (16:03.671)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (16:15.297)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (16:15.388)
Like you need a personal development plan for everyone in your own company. If you don't have that, then you're going to be in trouble in the long run because they're going to walk away. Everyone's always going to walk away. That's why the retention rates are so shitty.

Chad (16:25.748)
yeah.

Chad (16:29.717)
Yeah, well, it's how you're treating them too, right? And if you take a look at before, and this is a US problem that has spread, you know, has spread throughout the globe, mainly pushing itself into the UK. The UK is pretty much a little United States right now with regard to how they actually do business. And the way that we used to do business pre-TrickleDown was that companies...

they did receive obviously high taxes, right? They had to pay high taxes, but they could actually bring those taxes down with abatements to be able to demonstrate that they were developing their people, right? When did we start hearing the term skills gap? When did it start to just explode, right? It was after trickle down. Why? Because companies, after we start saying, you know what, we're just gonna go ahead, we're gonna stop this whole thing. We're gonna stop giving you

Jasper (17:14.716)
Hmm.

Chad (17:24.343)
all these incentives to develop your people. So what do do? They stop developing their people. And then what happened? We had skills gaps that used to be taken care of on a daily basis through a development or a weekly basis or a monthly basis through actual employee development. Well, there's no reason to do that anymore. No, that was just good fucking business in the first place, dipshit. mean, and when we talk about being able to, you know,

Jasper (17:44.861)
You

Chad (17:50.785)
Well, the loyalty has gone out of that. Well, yeah, it has gone out. Yeah, because again, you, Mr. CEO, you're taking a huge pay raise while everybody who's actually doing the work every single day are getting screwed. And yet, and yet we have people that are saying, well, that CEO deserves that. They didn't do the work. And again, it should be commensurate and it's not.

Jasper (17:52.568)
Yeah, no shit, yeah.

Jasper (18:19.962)
Yeah, it should be.

Chad (18:20.235)
You know, and I think that's one of the things that we're saying. Now, when we start talking about these huge deals, like the Lucas of the world or what have you, the guys who are actually bringing in so much just from quote unquote Jersey sales, for God sakes, it's an entirely, it makes it a little bit more sexy when you start talking about it that way. But you take a look at a team and everybody, anybody who has a favorite team, it doesn't matter whether it's rugby,

Jasper (18:33.222)
Yeah, I know. Yeah.

Chad (18:48.243)
It's European football, it's basketball, it doesn't matter what it is. You know if your player's a team player, right? That's why you love them or you hate them because they're not, because they're all selfish and they're individuals. Well, why is that? And you've got to ask yourself that as a leader in an organization, why don't they trust us? Well, it's probably not them, it's probably you.

Jasper (18:55.761)
Yeah.

Jasper (19:12.26)
I think we've, I think we found the one thing that you're just as passionate about, Brian. Brian, you, we found your money ball. We have just found your money ball. Now, what I'd be interested in the ripple effects too. we talk, sometimes we talk about like if a CTO or a CFO leaves a company and then it's a, it's a stock based company and the stocks just plummet. I think the same is happening exactly the same things happening to Mavericks. Like.

Chad (19:18.517)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chad (19:30.54)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (19:39.588)
I think, I think I read somewhere that an insane amount of people were asking for refunds on their season tickets. Well, yeah, that's going to happen. You're not going to sell as many jerseys. Your ticket prices are going to go shit because no one wants to see like a Crockett Anthony Davis sitting on the bench. Like it's just, it is a mind boggling thing that happens. And you think about all the ripple effects too. Like what, what does this tell you? when you look at the locker room,

Chad (19:57.729)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (20:09.296)
What does it say to them? Like, we're just going to trade someone away like that. Luca Doncis didn't see it coming. The team didn't see it coming. No one saw it coming. And just like, yeah, we're just, yeah, we're just selling off your biggest superstar teammate. Goodbye. It's mind boggling.

Chad (20:15.095)
Yeah? No.

Chad (20:26.699)
Yeah, well, I mean, as a person on that team, you know, again, you've got a superstar that's on your team and on the corporate side of the house. it can, it can, it can be demoralizing because wait a minute, why are they leaving? I mean, if they have a reason to leave and they're killing it, they're killing the game here. Well, then I probably have a reason to leave too. Right? So there's that whole demoralization, not to mention the team isn't going to be.

Jasper (20:40.988)
Hmm.

Chad (20:55.665)
as strong, my goal is going to be higher because they're gone. You know, they're going to ask me to do more. Same thing on the math squad, right? Anthony David, he's not going to be come in, be able to come in and actually do what Luca did. He can't. So therefore there's got to be a spread and they're going to be other individuals who have to pick up the slack, right? Think of it from this standpoint on the corporate side, when that person leaves, you don't have somebody come in the next day and fill that position.

They have to fill that, they have to pick up the slack for months in many cases.

Jasper (21:30.81)
Yeah. mean, this just feels like you've, just taught your team. You're taught your fans, your staff, your personnel, everyone around you that we're in a rebuild now. Like what we're doing, like they were, mean, like I'm not too, like I've followed the NBA, but not to the T or I watch football or soccer or anything like that.

Chad (21:40.951)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (21:53.916)
I think that the Mavericks were fairly successful in the past few years. think they were close either in the finals, the NBA finals or near it. Like they were very relevant team. And I was just looking at some of the statistics. Luca Donci averaged like 33 points a game in just two years ago. Sorry, 30, 34 points a game. And yeah, this may, maybe he's got a sort of an issue where, you know, okay, yeah, this is.

Chad (22:13.866)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (22:20.976)
Personal health choices aren't fantastic and maybe yeah, could he could lose a few kilos, but buddy 35 points a game Who are we to say anything about how the guy looks this guy's fit? He's an athlete. He's strong It's it's crazy and it's it just shows that and I think it just shows that everyone is tradable and everyone is just if if if a general manager just

Chad (22:29.441)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jasper (22:48.474)
just decides, okay, yeah, this guy is going to have to go. We're not offering him super max deal. he can just go then that's just exactly what's going to happen. And I think it's for NBA players and for, think for all staff, just shows, it just shows you how a split second decision can change your lively. It can change your career and just, it is, it is, it is definitely one of the, one of the weirdest trades I've, I've ever seen.

Chad (23:08.086)
Yes.

Chad (23:15.403)
Well, and if you take a look at it, try to take a parallel, run a parallel on the corporate side. So how do you actually keep an individual who's thinking about leaving? Okay. Well, generally we try to put them into a management position, right? In many cases, they are outstanding individual contributors, but they are shit when it comes to actually managing people or leading people, right? So again,

Jasper (23:33.372)
Hmm.

Jasper (23:43.996)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (23:44.971)
You don't have to worry about that with the, with, with the Mavs. Maybe they, maybe who knows, or maybe the Lakers, who knows, maybe they start doing the types of messy deals that are out there, right? And they become a part of the company or have ownership in the company, or they get onto the staff after whatever kind of deals happen there. But when it comes down to the corporate side of the house, this is a scenario where we make huge

decisions and mistakes all the time and promoting our amazing top talent into management positions. And then we turn around and lose them anyway, because that's not what they wanted to do. Right. They weren't good at it in the first place. And I've, and I've seen this happen many times and it always sucks because it always feels like a, you know, a non no win situation.

Jasper (24:15.804)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (24:29.788)
No.

Jasper (24:37.881)
Yeah. I think there's another sort of compelling parallel we could maybe make is that in, in the NBA, you sort of see when, your player or like start showing signs that he or she wants to leave, right. And you see it in basketball with like the body language, you see it just in sort of cryptic social media posts, or like you can see how they interact with journalists after the game and just like, but in, in, a corporate setting, I think it's, it's tougher to get a hold.

Chad (24:53.416)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (25:05.692)
on that because you don't have the social media posts. don't have, you know, 17 angles of video footage where you can analyze, well, actually his body language was really poor here. the coach was trying to tell us team something and his eyes were just wandering off. And it's hard to know that. I think in a sort of corporate setting, and it might be sort of missing meetings or being less engaged, but it's how do you look at that bit? Like are there certain things that people can go ahead and sort of implement in them, their way of observing their own talent?

that could actually be beneficial in trying to see these early warning signs.

Chad (25:40.993)
I think this goes back to our Bill Parcells episode last week. And if you haven't listened to that, listen to that. Where, you know, he had an individual who wanted to be a head coach right out of the gate and Bill said, no. No. Why? Because you need to be able to be a scout first. Cause you have to understand talent first. Right? And that was a mentoring position. What we have to do as leaders, if we want to be leaders, you don't have to be. And that's the biggest key. You need to be able to

to get at that fork in the road and say, you know what, I really like doing this individual contributor thing and being a part of the team. There's nothing wrong with that. You don't have to be a damn leader or manager, but if you do, then you have to go full throttle in understanding your people, right? And one of the things that I tried doing as a manager right out of the gate was turning them into little chads because little chads, because I know that I knew how I did it and I knew that it worked and I knew I knocked the cover off the ball, right? But not everybody's the same. So you have to be more fluid.

Jasper (26:21.094)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (26:41.639)
understanding and really helping them in these different ways. And this is where I learned a lot from the military is, you know, back in World War II and whatnot, we're trying to pump out people, it only one way, only one way, only one way. It's not how it's taught today. We're a hell of a lot more fluid, which is why we're much more strong, right? Because we know that there's more than one way to do things. There are standards, there are procedures, there are all these wonderful things.

Jasper (27:00.22)
Hmm.

Chad (27:07.457)
But if you start to look at your people and see where their strengths and their weaknesses are, you can use those strengths. You can, and you can, you can train to those weaknesses and that's the big key. And they're all going to be different from person to person to person. So, I mean, from my standpoint, it's much like the Mavericks getting a coach for every single one of their, their, their players, right? Because they knew that development was the key, not just to be able to keep them.

but to make them stronger, to make them better and to win.

Jasper (27:39.13)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think to, to, add something to that is I think you're absolutely spot on. And I think it just, Brian would be proud in terms of the diversity of talent that is needed in today's world. I know a certain president that would not be so happy with that statement, but he can go and do something, stick that where the sun doesn't shine. Anyway, but I think it's also sort of a golden rule. think it's just like, if they're already thinking about leaving, probably mentally that they're gone.

Chad (27:50.017)
Yeah?

Jasper (28:07.706)
Like they're gone. And the question then sort of becomes like, can you, if you, if you don't want to let them go, how do you manage that transition at least in a way that sort of strengthens your team or your, company or your, or your team, rather than, than weakening your organization. but you need, I think it's fine to have sort of a pivot plan into, but the worst cases are just like when someone leaves abruptly and then it leaves you stranded.

because you didn't see any of the warning signs. didn't read into any of the yearly or annual reviews that you had. And it's like, yeah, you do need to think about followups. I know plenty of these companies that are so reliant on one or two people. And I'm like, if these two people were to leave right now, your business model is just done. You're screwed. And it's just so important, I think, to identify those people.

Chad (28:35.508)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (28:56.278)
Yes.

You're screwed.

Jasper (29:04.292)
and to have a plan B because you, there are going to leave. Let's just be real. I think the years of someone celebrating their 60th job anniversary with the same company, I think those years are done. don't think we're going to, I don't think we're going to fight those people anymore. So you do need a plan B and whether the Mavericks, it doesn't, it doesn't work that the metaphor doesn't work for the Mavericks because their plan B seems really shitty.

And I think we can all learn a few lessons here about how poorly Dallas has done this.

Chad (29:35.671)
Agreed.

We used to say, you need a bus plus one, is what we'd call, okay? So your CTO, what's the bus plus one? It's like, well, what's the bus? Well, what if your CTO gets hit by a bus? Who's the plus one, right? You know, I need a bus plus one for Chad. I need a bus plus one for, right? So it's the whole idea of, it might not be here tomorrow. And again, we did it more as a joke. Well, what if Hal gets hit by a bus? What the hell are we gonna do? We need to have that plus one.

Jasper (29:49.4)
Yeah.

Chad (30:07.851)
then you have to think about, as you were talking about, people who have already decided to leave, right? And the Navy SEALs, they have this wonderful thing where they have a bell that follows the trainees around wherever they're at. at any time, at any time, a trainee can go in, ring that bell, and say, are done. The instructors at that point look at them and say, totally understand, but let's go ahead and take a minute, breathe, think.

We're going to give you another chance. You can go get back in the water with your peers and you can tough this out or you can just go ahead and go. Everybody who gets back in the water with their peers, they know they're going to leave anyway because they've already rung the bell. If you've rung the bell in your head as an employee, you're already fucking gone. And if you're a manager, you don't know who's already rung the bell. That's on you. That is totally on you.

Jasper (31:07.758)
Yeah, spot on. think so listeners, if you think about buying, purchasing one item for your office space by the bell, is that a great metaphor? That is so it works, but it's, it's your absolutely spot on. If you've, if you've, if you've done it once mentally, you know, you know that that is going to be your outcome. Yeah. And at the end of the day, you know, I mean, the Maverick straight of the straight of the way superstar. but yeah, and I think it's.

Chad (31:17.696)
and buy the bell.

Chad (31:26.465)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (31:38.48)
Whether it will be to the benefit of their team, we'll see. Maybe it does. Maybe it helps them in the long run. In the short term, it looks like a really bad move, but that's the beautiful thing about sports. You never know where it goes to in the long

Chad (31:52.071)
You never know, man. There might be a new piece that they plug in that they get out of nowhere, who knows? Maybe they see something that we don't? I don't know. The Giants let Saekwon go and look what happened.

Jasper (31:53.628)
You never know.

Jasper (31:57.606)
And that's the beauty of it.

Jasper (32:06.0)
Shit yeah. Goes and wins a Superbowl for your biggest rival. That's a great one. Yeah, well done Chad. That's I think that's one of the best ones in the podcast so far. it's yeah. No, but it's true. never do. But truly, truly, you never do know where it where it leads to. And I think the same applies to the corporate world. You never know.

Chad (32:11.713)
Yeah

Chad (32:23.191)
Uhhh...

Chad (32:28.704)
Uh-uh.

Jasper (32:32.28)
If someone gets a chance to step up what they'll do in the limelight, you'll never know. But I think it's the owners is on you, the managers out there to, to sometimes try and see if you can push someone to that limelight. And if that limelight is applicable to that person, try and see. that's, that's the whole development spiel that we just, we pretty much just shared. it's yeah, but it's, it's, I think it's another, the trade, the trade itself was really surprising, but it's, it's fun to try and.

draw parallels to the business world for sure.

Chad (33:05.193)
Agreed. yes, next time we should have Mr. Brian Johnson back. is, he's, he's traveling. He's actually in sunny San Diego, which I'm now looking at, outside snow. Got about three to five inches of snow. just last couple of days. It's not, it's just cold. It's just cold. The snow's not a big deal. Yeah, but it's just cold. So we, we are, yeah, after coming back from the Algarve and having the wonderful, beautiful weather and coming back to this, you know,

Jasper (33:18.748)
That's not too bad. That's not too bad. That's great. It's just cold. Yeah.

Jasper (33:31.676)
Oh I know.

I just went 35 degrees in Sri Lanka to minus two Celsius here in the south of Holland. So, oooh buddy!

Chad (33:35.211)
First World Problems.

Chad (33:40.087)
You win. You win.

So listeners feel bad for us and we will see you next week on Talent Chasing. Share with your friends, share with your peers, share with everybody. A couple of different listens. Go ahead, download it for everybody. We appreciate it, man. We'll talk to you next week, Jasper. Later.

Jasper (33:53.818)
Everyone.

Jasper (34:00.956)
Talk to you next week, mate.