Breakdown : Coach Prime

Brian (00:20.626)
How are doing listener? Welcome to another episode of talent chasing a podcast that dares to ask the question, what do sports and office and the office world have in common? The answer as it turns out is quite a lot more than you think. Join us as we aim to bring real stories from the world of sports and athletics to the confounds of offices of corporate talent. My name is Brian Johnson and I'm a former major league baseball player and scout.

Jasper (00:47.012)
and he's also a bit ill. Poor Brian. My name is Chas de Spangard. I'm a journalist and filmmaker and Chad only gave me two lines on this intro. So thanks, Chad.

Chad (00:49.806)
You

Chad (00:55.824)
You're welcome.

And I'm Chad. So watch recruitment, industry veteran, tech startup advisor and investor in this episode. Well, it's part of our breakdown series where we literally break down news and topics of our favorite athletes in business icons. This week we're breaking down prime time. Dion Sanders, a sports legend known for excelling in both the NFL and major league baseball, a hall of fame quarterback and a two time Superbowl champ. He has also played in the world series, making him the

only athlete to achieve both feats. Now known as coach prime Dion won a championship at Jackson State University and is currently the head football coach at the University of Colorado Boulder where he has taken a team with a one in 11 losing record in 2022 made ground, made ground winning four in 2023 and in 2024 the buffs are currently nine in three and ranked 23rd in the nation.

Brian, is this what every losing team who experiences a regime change could expect?

Brian (02:06.502)
Yeah, I mean, he's such an interesting case to watch from afar. Especially when you think of, you know, leadership, impact of leadership, when they come in to, because typically when you change leadership, be it a CEO at a company, or a head coach of American football team, you don't really take over a team or a company that's doing well, typically. You're typically, you're coming in to take over something that has trouble. So,

So it's so important that you make the right hire, right? We talk about that all the time, making the right hire and can those that are hiring the CEO or the head coach or the manager, are they good enough to be able to identify that talent and be able to hire correctly? Dion Sanders is such an interesting case because of everything else other than what you just talked about, Chad. Prime Time was as a kid or as an athlete, it was all about him, right? He came off.

The whole branding idea of today of using social media to brand yourself as a professional athlete or an amateur athlete, that was not even thought about back in the day when Dion was taking control. He was so electric that it was like he had his own social media to the world. So just that as a backdrop, number one, what happens when you do that is that you are a lightning rod for criticism.

Chad (03:01.392)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (03:06.82)
He was doing it.

Brian (03:28.774)
So that means there's going to be more than half people that don't like you just from the concept of you having a brand at all. And also you've never been a head coach before he goes to Jackson State. So for those people who don't know Jackson State, it's an HBCU conference. So historically black college universities, HBCU for those people don't know. And that conference is full of sports. It used to be a powerhouse athletic conference. Then the mostly white

colleges, most of the other big five colleges, they would started taking black athletes from the HBCU colleges. And so therefore, just like a city that loses its manufacturing base and loses jobs, the HBCU went downhill athletically in a big way. So all that stuff put into prime time was doubted completely from the beginning. He couldn't do it then add on top of it. He got rid of all of his players that he inherited.

Chad (04:26.224)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jasper (04:26.66)
Yeah, he did. Yeah.

Brian (04:28.04)
He inherited a bunch of players. were 0 for the last 22 or whatever, or 1 for 2 for the last 22 in the previous two seasons. So all these things put together just make him a fascinating case. And now he's had success. They're talking about him leaving and going somewhere else, which I don't think he will. Deion Sanders is fascinating by himself and the bigger subject that we're going to talk about today of the importance of leadership on a team or company.

Chad (04:57.488)
Jasper, you saw the Jackson State documentary, is that what it was?

Jasper (05:01.974)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, coincidentally prime Amazon prime did a documentary on coach prime. yeah, go figure. Right. Yeah. Well, Netflix do that. no, and it was, it was very, very good. It really gave a, cause you've got sports documentaries coming out of left, right. And sensor. oftentimes you go, okay, well that's scripted that script, that's scripted, but with prime, it felt very real. And that's sort of Testament, I think to that type of guy he is. I like Brian said, for people who don't know Jackson state is.

Chad (05:06.004)
Mmm. Go figure. Yeah. Makes sense.

Jasper (05:30.502)
was pretty much an irrelevant football team at that point when he took over. Like it's not the most, let's say wonderful area of the world where you want to go and live, where you want to go and raise your children. but he, turned it right on its head. And I think there's one scene in particular that really stood out with me. To me, because in 2022, I think they had a water crisis and it wasn't any fresh water coming into the city. And to me, like what, what coach Sanders, what prime did. So he moved his entire team to a hotel.

to ensure that they sort of had the basic necessities, right? And while maintaining practice schedules and academic requirements, everything. And I think I wrote down a quote that he said during that time. He said, water means life. And for much of Jackson right now, there is no life. And he didn't complain. Like he didn't just complain about the crisis. Like he took immediate action, take protecting his place.

maintaining, know, their routines, their responsibilities, their schedules, you know, that is a master. It was a masterclass in crisis leadership to me. and you know, that's the best thing of a documentary. At least that's the best thing of a documentary to me. You cannot script that happening. There is no chance you can just point the camera, follow the guy to me. That is a clear sign, no sign, no idea. You could not script any of that.

And, know, he just, he didn't complain. And what really impressed me, he then used this platform because, know, for people listening in Europe, coach Sanders prime Dion Sanders is a big deal. and he didn't just solve the problem for his team. know, he brought national attention to that infrastructure problem that Jackson had. and, it really showed how leaders can, leverage that influence for just, I don't know, just a

broader community impact and just it's bigger than them. It's bigger than that scene, but it's, it's well worth a watch. It follows the team. It, it, sees you pummel Jackson state, pummel every team that they can find and get their hands on because they didn't just win. just, won in the most traumatic way that you can imagine. Like beating teams by scores. wouldn't normally think would happen in a football team in a football game. Well, I'm a Jets fan. I'm used to losing. I'm not used to the winning side of things.

Jasper (07:43.418)
But it's incredible to see what he did and how he turned that program around. it's, yeah, it's spectacular.

Brian (07:44.296)
you

Chad (07:49.02)
We'll get into that. Don't worry. We'll talk jets. When it comes down to Jackson, mean Jackson, Mississippi, you think of first and foremost, you've got, he's the coach. He's got to get great talent to Jackson, Mississippi. Right? So you got to make the right hire. Number one, he inspires people. That's what a great leader does. They inspire. Right?

Jasper (07:52.39)
Peace out.

Jasper (07:56.912)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (08:15.472)
They motivate, give the direction, the mentorship, those types of things. And he does feel incredibly real, very authentic. Even though he is over the top, you know that over the top is him. It is him, right? So, Brian, when it comes down to it, how hard is it to be able to try to lure top talent to Jackson, Mississippi?

Jasper (08:25.848)
He is, yeah. But it's him, yeah.

Brian (08:28.028)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (08:41.244)
Yeah, I mean, and Jasper mentioned, I don't want to beat up on the city itself, but the state is the lowest median income in the country. Education wise, the educational system has the lowest scores in the country. Property values are really low. Poverty rate is really low. yeah, it's a tough place to go to. And you got a place that hasn't won historically. So what does Deion Sanders do? He's able to draw in Travis Hunter, who was the

Chad (08:46.257)
yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Chad (09:09.468)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (09:11.108)
number one high school recruit in the nation and he was able to bring them to no name Jackson State solely because of the relationship that he built with Travis Hunter and who Dion was. Dion was a hall of fame like a prodigy as a cornerback slash kick and pumper turner. So athletically I played against him. I got to know him a little bit. He's the fastest human being I've ever seen and I played against Bo Jackson. I played against

Jasper (09:13.594)
Yeah.

Chad (09:29.425)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (09:39.944)
a bunch of guys that were fast and he was, he didn't even look like he was touching the ground. So that's as a player, but as a coach, in order to answer your question, Chad, you have to, in order to bring people to your organization, you have to be able to instill confidence in somebody else to be able to understand how they tick, be able to know what they want. So you gotta be able to hear someone else to understand what they're looking for.

And then also you have to run your organization as something of a beacon that people want to be drawn to. Dion Sanders is fascinating. He does not swear or cuss. And for someone who's a reformed cusser myself, who tries to not cuss a lot, because I still love to cuss and it's just a great language, but it's just amazing as much as he's on TV and as much as he interviews he does and coaching a football team.

Chad (10:23.292)
Somewhat.

Yeah. yeah.

Chad (10:34.512)
Yes.

Chad (10:37.916)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (10:38.298)
I mean, that's just a simple thing. And the things he talks about are just simple. He wants to raise young men. And I think that in the business space is something that gets lost. We're such a production mind, especially with the influx of analytics. We're all about production, production, production. Yeah, let's get rid of four or five people in this department and just make everybody else work harder and they won't leave because they need the job.

that's not what that's not the type of culture that you build. You got to be able to do it in a way that people want to work there. The difference in my work, the difference of a great culture and a bad culture, a great culture is people want to be there, a bad culture is people can't wait to get out of there. So for Deion Sanders to be able to do that in the scale and under the microscope, and he, by the way, he's coaching his two sons, which if anybody's ever coached their son before, it's

Jasper (11:24.87)
Hmm.

Jasper (11:34.086)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (11:34.129)
Yes.

Brian (11:37.596)
treacherous it's difficult to do because you're constantly aware of am I being biased against that so Regardless, know Being able to keep talent to get talent. It's an art and not everybody can do what Deon Sanders has done

Chad (11:38.5)
I can't believe it. Yeah. Yeah.

Chad (11:55.45)
Well, he fired his own, his, his own team and then, and then he brought his son in. Right. I mean, and again, you talk about lightning rod. and then you take a look at Travis Hunter, who probably, mean, kid plays both ways. you don't see that in football these days. Right. Number one, number two, he's probably one of the top 10 athletes in college football right now. It's, it's just amazing. So go ahead.

Jasper (12:23.302)
I think, yeah, I think it's big. I think the Travis Hunter story is probably one of the best takeaways that you can have. Cause this is like, this is like your garbage scale up or startup hiring away someone from the very top of the line, right? So people who don't understand Travis, like college football, Travis Hunter is the top player at that time. Any school in America would have wanted Travis Hunter. Anyone. Because he's the

Chad (12:29.276)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (12:33.798)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chad (12:48.732)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (12:50.14)
He's gonna win the Heisman Trophy.

Jasper (12:51.462)
He's going to win the Heisman Trophy in 2024. He's going to win, you know, he's, and he did it by playing both positions, playing cornerback, playing wide receiver, doing, doing both essentially is just incredible, but he's, I was having a little statistics. He's the number one prospect in the entire 2022 class, but he was the first one ever to commit to an HBCU school. So imagine that this guy just chose, well, I think he committed to, he chose Deion.

Chad (12:53.146)
Amazing.

Chad (13:18.628)
He chose Dion. That was it. Yes.

Brian (13:20.36)
Exactly right.

Jasper (13:20.93)
above any school and when can you find that metaphor in business anymore? Like that is, it's very rare.

Brian (13:29.626)
And if I can go, if I can build off the Travis Hunter piece of wealth, if you listen to the, the, you know, the details, they're getting a lot of media coming out of Boulder, Colorado, the University of Colorado there, Travis Hunter, straight A student, no disciplinary issues, respectful on the field, even though he's very, you know, you, you watch how other players interact with him. They're competing with them. They're trying to knock his head off.

Chad (13:39.654)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (13:58.172)
but you see the interactions after the game. It's very respectful. know, it just, again, just this guy's head and shoulders above a whole lot of players. Now, some people go to Colorado to play football only because Dion's there, but the able, if you've got a hundred guys on a football team, how do you build that relationship with each one of those players? You do it with a team around you that is able to have some of the similar traits that you have. Can they build relationships with people?

Can they build people up instead of knocking them down? And again, in business, you gotta care, and business and sports, you gotta care about where they go and what their career and what their life is gonna look like if they happen to leave you. I think a lot of times, especially in business, a lot of times companies will say, well, we're not gonna invest in all that because they may leave us in a year or two. So why would we bother with that? I'm training them to do someone else's business. That's ass backwards. You are investing in your talent while you have them.

Chad (14:49.584)
Yeah. Yep.

Yes.

Brian (14:56.368)
and have a little confidence in yourself that they will not leave because you have given them and invested so much. And if they do great. Now you have an ally at another company. Now you got if you built a real relationship there. Now you have assets all over the country or wherever you are all over the world that if you have real relationships you can gather information about the industry about new markets. You can gather industry information about a lot of things that can benefit you that doesn't just show up on the analytics sheet.

Chad (15:23.782)
Yeah.

Well, and not to mention that's all good for business. I mean, you're developing your people to get better in their positions, not to mention also progress, right? That's what you're developing them to do so that even if they go off to, you know, another organization doesn't mean they're not going to boomerang back. Right. And they will.

Jasper (15:29.582)
Yeah.

Brian (15:45.288)
That's right.

Jasper (15:46.104)
No, and it doesn't mean they're going to say nice things about you to all the peers. that's one of the, like, you should want your best people to leave. If you don't want your best people to leave, you don't want the best for them. And I know that's going to be the most difficult thing that many entrepreneurs and business owners have to overcome, but that's probably the number one takeaway from this. like even Dion is spending so much of his time investing his time into these guys, developing a relationship. Guess what? Travis Hunter is probably going to go to the NFL next year.

Chad (15:49.85)
Yes, yeah, yeah.

Brian (15:49.928)
That's right.

Brian (15:54.152)
That's right.

Chad (16:15.312)
Yeah. yeah.

Jasper (16:15.812)
He's going to be gone. Right. You've done four years or three years of a lot of attention and he's going to be gone.

Chad (16:22.106)
And that's what Dion wants. Not that he wants him to be gone, he wants him to succeed. He wants the best for those guys. And that to me is, that's what a true mentor is. Somebody who, I mean, even if you're training the guy who's gonna take your job one day, right? You still need to mentor them through that. You keep your people longer. They're more productive. If you care,

Jasper (16:24.196)
Yeah. No, he wants the best.

Chad (16:49.518)
Right. And that's one of the things that I think like what you were talking about earlier, Brian, you know, we take a look at today. It's not just about numbers. It's about profits, right? Profits over people. If we flip that and we put people over profits, your profits are going to just grow. Right. And so at the end of the day, for me, this is definitely a great, a great

conversation around leadership. And I want to I want to show the other the other side of the coin here real quick as we all have watched head coach Brian Dable from from the Giants. Right. And and I sent you a clip right before this where Brian Dable sits down with Jane Daniels and literally right out of the gate is like, do you want to be here? Do you want to be here? Right. And it's like there's no personal

Jasper (17:27.142)
Hmm.

Jasper (17:40.838)
You wanna be here?

Chad (17:46.04)
action or reaction or there's nothing. It's not what can we do for you? Why do you think the Giants organization can do for you, right? It's me, me, me. And that's not leadership. So looking at the contrast between those, know, Brian, what are your thoughts? I mean, when I first thought it, I'm like, man, he's an asshole. I wouldn't want to play for him.

Brian (18:09.224)
Well, it's interesting because I think in the United States especially, right? We come out of World War II, the military has had an unbelievable victory. think that it was a very different world, different society back then, but there are semblances of the military style, old school military style leadership that I think has permeated into business and permeated into sports. Bobby Knight, University of Indiana coach for a long time coached that way.

Woody Hayes, a football coach at university, Ohio state university, both Schembechler Michigan university. So they're icons of coaching. And that was a style of coaching to where you force people to do what you want them to do. You break everybody down and then you build them back up in your image. That doesn't work anymore. That, that, that philosophy, I don't know about military wise, but in the regular world, that philosophy, you don't have that kind of control over people.

Chad (18:42.33)
Ohio State, yeah.

Chad (18:57.95)
Hahaha

Brian (19:06.224)
And people are, you it's the information age. People are smarter. They're, they're aware of what other companies, what other teams, what other leaders are doing. And they're like, they, they feel like they have a choice. So you can't force people to do what you want them to do. Now you can convince them. Now you can make your argument for them. You can see how it's going to benefit them. Your Brian Dable point, the head coach of the New York Giants point is a salient one, right? He does no work.

Jasper (19:33.455)
Hmm.

Brian (19:36.316)
He invests no time in this who's now a superstar, Jaden Daniels. He invests no time. Here's an opportunity for a great asset for the organization that could be the poster child for your organization and take you out of the depths of poor play for the next 10 years. you just, first, it's like dating somebody and asking them to go to bed five seconds into your date, right? You know, it's like,

Chad (19:40.496)
Yes, yes.

Brian (20:05.276)
Do some work first, right? Have a conversation with me. Get to know me a little bit first, right? Do something. Take me to dinner. Right. So yeah, it's mind-boggling that people are still being hired in leadership positions in sports and in business that are not very good.

Chad (20:10.428)
Bring me some flowers for God's sakes. Come on.

Jasper (20:10.758)
Buy me some flowers, Buy me a drink, yeah. Come on, Brian.

Chad (20:18.138)
I mean

Jasper (20:29.478)
I think the one thing I do want to tie into is that I am fully on board with everything you say. think Dion Sanders also presents a quite an interesting counterpoint to the fact that we all go, okay, Generation Z doesn't want any level of discipline. Well, they do look at it because Brian alluded to it earlier. Like there's a no swearing rule, no cursing. I came across an ESPN article that delves into this and he's got all types of principles. Like you have to tuck in your shirts. You have to sit up straight in meetings, take off your hats.

Brian (20:42.696)
Great point.

Jasper (20:58.126)
And it's like, one of the recruits noted that his principles, like if you're talking to him and you're slouching, he'll make you sit up and get it on. They'll get on you. Right. Well, it's fascinating to me is that rather than driving generations, way this structure seems to attract it because, know, he combines that sort of discipline with his, his level of authenticity, right? It defines clear expectations, purpose driven strictness almost to a point where you go. Surely this can't work in this day and age, but.

Clearly you can and I think this sort of presents such a good counterpoint to, Gen Z doesn't want that strictness, doesn't want that discipline. They do, but they want a relationship with you first. You cannot expect people to adhere to strict behavior if you do not have any sense of relationship. And I think that sort of ties it all together.

Chad (21:49.724)
I've said it million times. When I'm looking at the prospect of either investing or advising a startup, the founder's what matters most, right? Is the founder charismatic? Are they someone who can definitely get a message across and seem like they're real, not like they're faking it all the time? Because you hear the fake it till you make it bullshit. Well, people can tell when you're faking it. Now, Dion in that case,

Jasper (21:56.517)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (22:14.071)
yeah.

Chad (22:19.088)
This is his startup. And he went out there as a founder with a vision, with the motivation, and with the props. mean, he's a dude's got it, man. NFL, Major League Baseball, holy cow, man. I want to be this guy. So yeah, you will see individuals, not all individuals, individuals walk through fire just to be led by this kind of guy. And then when you hear something like from a Brian Dayball, you say,

Where has this guy gotten his leadership training? He hasn't, right? And we see this in the corporate space as well. And again, I'm spoiled because, you know, my military background, we had to go to leadership school. If we didn't go to leadership school, we got demoted.

Brian (23:03.474)
Mm.

Chad (23:06.684)
So this was the thing you had to go to. So I've gone to several leadership schools. And when I see guys like this and those multi-million dollar types of positions, I'm like, man, what school did he go to because he's a shit leader? Well, he didn't. Right. And we're seeing the same thing on the corporate side. So how do how do we get I mean, Dion is just he's literally it's you could you can say he's like he's a natural leader. Right. Not everybody is.

Brian (23:19.858)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (23:34.3)
And we live in an era of instant gratification. expect everything now. Deon didn't give them everything, but they did go from one in 11 to where they are today. Right. That's not too bad. And under two years, right. But most programs can't afford a Deon, a prime time, a coach prime. When you're building an organization and you need that leadership, what do you do?

Jasper (23:39.707)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (23:49.596)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (24:03.674)
I mean, that's this is the hard part. How do you actually identify the type of talent that you need to be able to build the organization? Because everybody thinks that the CEOs at the top, that's bullshit. They're the foundation. They've got to be at the bottom.

Brian (24:16.572)
right. Yeah, the was the inverted pyramid where the CEO is actually serving everyone. That's the model, right? That that's the model where it has to be. And so you're right, that is a tough question. It's easy to point fingers. It's easy to criticize where leadership is going wrong. But it's also easy to celebrate when it's done right. The leadership in in business that I've seen is where, you know, they they do their best to

Jasper (24:24.1)
Yeah.

Chad (24:24.186)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chad (24:41.819)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (24:46.45)
to really relate to people. So they are out on the manufacturing floor, talking to people, building relationships, asking them things, even pulling up their sleeves and getting in there and getting dirty and working with them, whoever it be, right? They find out and that's just the simplest way to put it. It's just building relationships and also doing what you say, right? Not making, you're not a politician. So you can't make promises that you don't, that you're not able to keep.

Chad (24:57.894)
Yeah.

Brian (25:16.136)
But you got to be able to have the skill and have the history of building up organizations and having and being able to communicate with people who have been under his leadership, his or her leadership before. Right. So I think there's a lot more work that needs to be done. And those that are making those hires, they have to know what is a big problem with a lot of positions, especially in the DEI space. didn't go well. It's a lot of people thrown into DEI, a C-suite positions.

that had no idea what that position entailed. So they were hiring people for jobs they had no idea what it took to be. And so when people are trying to hire leaders and they themselves aren't good leaders and they don't know what it takes to be a good leader, you're going to be in the situation the Chicago Bears are in right now. Hire a new GM, get rid of, but brings and takes over the head coach and the quarterback.

Jasper (25:44.88)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (26:08.092)
Ha

Brian (26:12.136)
Get rid of the head coach and quarterback bring in a new GM I mean the cycle of of inefficiency goes on and on and on and on and on it just screams that you don't know what you're doing because you didn't and if you hire somebody look at Detroit Lions again American football they made two strange hires two people who didn't know each other to run the organization to have so the two halves of the organization the business side has gotten in brand homes the football side has gotten in

Jasper (26:16.917)
Cycle will continue here.

Chad (26:38.62)
Mm-hmm.

Dan Campbell. Yeah.

Brian (26:41.34)
Dan Campbell. They didn't know each other. One black guy, one white guy, different ends of the spectrum, but they work together. And because the leadership of the organization that had not done a really good job of hiring good leaders before, here they do. They go unconventional and they hire someone different and they work together. And it has worked out beautifully because they build the culture. So I don't know what ideas do you guys have to solve this problem?

Chad (26:54.972)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (27:09.744)
Well, I got to ask Jasper though, because if you take a look at it, right, you go out and you find a guy who has a proven record. You find a guy who has very strong vision, right? And the Jets went out and found Aaron Rodgers. So, you you said right out of the gate, make the right hire, right, Brian?

Brian (27:17.096)
.

Brian (27:26.952)
Hmm.

Chad (27:36.464)
He kinda looked like the right hire, but what happened? Jasper, and why do you think it's going down the way it is?

Jasper (27:41.658)
His Achilles went pop. No. Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. I know there's this year too. He's got a, yeah, I don't know. and I can vividly remember episodes where you guys were like, okay, you finally got a bit of hope now, surely, know, Superbowl contenders, the New York football jets in a way. want to believe that, but in a way also know that it's not going to happen because for some reason this team is just.

Chad (27:43.836)
That was was year one. We're on year two. Okay.

Chad (28:00.028)
It's the hope that kills you.

Jasper (28:06.98)
destined for failure. And I don't know if it's, if it comes, it boils down to the ownership, whether it boils down to draft choices, or it boils down to giving Aaron Rogers a sort of free pass to hire and get whoever guys, know, whoever you wanted on the team. I don't know. You look at the team, he's still a decent enough quarterback. His statistics aren't that bad. He's not the Aaron Rogers MVP perennial guy. can get, it could get his team to a Superbowl type of guy, but he's competent enough.

But I think it's just a leadership problem right down from the top. Enabling though, cause when you look at it, if you are not, if you're as ownership, cause they, they sacked their coach and their GM this year. If you as ownership do not trust those guys to make the right calls and you're intervening between. that, cause it boils down to this GM don't Joe Douglas didn't necessarily want DeFonte Adams apparently.

You know who won at Devonte Adams? The owner of the team and Aaron Rodgers. Yeah, but then the owner of the team. And apparently there's multiple cases of this, this year where the ownership of the New York Jets just pushed forward their own decisions. They didn't allow their gym or their coach to make the calls that they were hired to make. And to me, boils down to the same issue that we've been talking about. And it boils down to the same thing that we've been talking about Deion. Trust your people.

Chad (29:07.268)
Aaron, well, Aaron Rodgers. Yeah.

Brian (29:34.76)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (29:35.172)
Because when Sanders got to, you know, Colorado university, he surrounded himself with a core team of assistant coaches that just, he trusted and reinforced that strategy. He's like, I expect you to do your job well, and I trust you to do your job well. And to me, it, again, we, we keep coming back to military terms, but it feels like a military operation there. It feels like he's got coaches and you can see in the documentary they've made on him too.

You can see that he just trusts these guys to make the right call. Offensive coordinator, go make your calls. Defensive coordinator, go make your calls. And they'll talk about it during the week, but on game day, that's their decision. And to me, there's a level of wanting his guys to succeed that I've not seen with a lot of coaches or managers or anywhere in the world, business or sports. He wants his assistants to become the next and the next coach and the next coach. it's

Like it's like having mini ambassadors all over the campus or all over your organization. And that's exactly what you should aspire to do.

Brian (30:39.496)
Two things that jump out to me, what you said Jasper, and I really liked both of them, but one is micromanaging. Everybody knows what micromanaging is. That's what the ownership for the Jets has done. The owner has been away and doing other things, watching the team from afar, not there on a daily basis, comes in and those people that he hired to do the everyday day in and day out job, he usurps their authority, he makes decisions, and it just makes no sense.

Chad (30:48.924)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (31:07.986)
So that's a big one there. But the other one is to be able to have the confidence in yourself as we just talked about, Wanting to build people up so that they do well. You want them to do well. You want them to go somewhere else if it happens to be and do well because you have, it's important for that to happen and invest in people. And again, Dion Sanders hires his offensive corner, Pat Shermer, a former major, former NFL head coach. He hires talent around him that he's not intimidated by.

that he understands will disagree with him at times. And he's open to that because he realized he's kind of a neophyte coach in a way. He hadn't been doing it for 30 years. And so good leaders are ones that are able to listen, number one, but number two, be able to take constructive new ideas, mold them in their head, and then say, you know what, that's a better idea. I'm changing the way I think of things because you made a better argument.

And that's really, really important.

Chad (32:08.95)
And that's not I mean, that goes in the lines of not just professional sports because you've got you go in the second half and you change your entire defense to be able to stuff that running quarterback, right, or that or that running or that or that wide receiver that's killing you or Travis Kelsey or what have you. But it's also incredibly important on the business side. You have to be especially with how fast technology is moving today. You're going to see many big brands get outflanked.

by companies you've never heard of before. mean, OpenAI came out of nowhere. What the hell was OpenAI three years ago? Nobody knows. Next thing you know, they are a name that everybody knows. They leapfrogged. Google. Who does that? Who does a little company called OpenAI? Technology is going to allow us to outflank. That might be statistics to better understand what's going on on the field.

whether that's the field of play with regard to sports or the business field. And for me, it is incredibly important that we stay as flexible and fluid as we possibly can. And we take risks. Now, these can't be risks that are going to take our entire organization or team down like Aaron Rodgers. But other than that, you know, we've got to take those risks. And that's the important thing. And I think the Dan Campbell risk, because he's not, I mean, he played the game.

He was a hell of a player, but he was a risk as as yeah, as a head football coach, right? But that's paying off, whether it was luck or not. It's definitely paying off. What about what about when you were talking about the the the owner getting involved? I can only think of of of one company slash team that does that a lot. And that's the Cowboys. They had a dynasty in the 90s.

Brian (33:39.048)
Big, risk.

Chad (34:05.616)
Where have they been since and why?

Brian (34:07.932)
Yeah. The, the Dallas Cowboys, when Jerry Jones first bought the team, won three Superbowls in like five years. So he thought, and then he got rid of like two coaches along, got rid of Jimmy Johnson, Barry Switzer got brought in his, his, he went, the owner, Jerry Jones went to Oklahoma. He brings in his Oklahoma guy and Barry Switzer and they went Superbowl again. And so he thought it was all about him. And so that's kind of where that started. I think with the Cowboys, huh. It's still today. Yeah.

Chad (34:13.819)
Yeah.

Chad (34:32.892)
Still today.

Jasper (34:34.084)
Yeah, still today.

Brian (34:37.192)
And he's like 90 something on year old years old, but the day.

Chad (34:39.452)
Yeah, but he has kids. He has kids that are going to be thinking the exact same way, right? Yeah.

Jasper (34:45.253)
Yeah.

Brian (34:45.778)
Possibly the Dan Campbell situation is unique too in that because it didn't always go well, right? It's going well for the Detroit Lions right now. But the first season they were like three and 13. And so there was a point where the fans were calling for Dan Campbell's head. They're like this experiment is not working. We're getting worse before we get better. Because remember you got to kind of get rid of all the bad stuff. You got to cut the fat. You got to start over. You got a clean house.

And that looks, you got to take a step or two backwards before you can take a three steps forward. And that's exactly what happened with the Detroit Lions. And the key thing that happened that you don't see necessarily with the Giants or the Jets or the Cowboys, the key thing that happened is the new, so let me pause a little bit. The Detroit Lions ownership is the Henry Ford Motor Group, essentially the Ford family. Now, historically, the Ford family has made bad decisions just like the Giants and the Jets.

Jasper (35:38.79)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (35:43.016)
for 50, 60 years, they have done similar things as that. The grandfather, the patriarch dies, a bunch of little rumblings, who's going to take over the Detroit Lions, who's one company that the Henry Ford Motor Group owns. So one entity is the Detroit Lions football team. So the decision this time around, this point of the era of the Detroit Lions, is to have one of the daughters take over.

Her name, last name is Hemp. And so she takes over very different idea of what leadership is. She gets an office inside the building. She's there every day. She doesn't speak up on hirings and firings. She's not involved in trade talks, but she was innately involved in hiring Dan Campbell and Brad Holmes. And so she got people around him, very similar to Dion, Chris Spielman, Hall of Fame linebacker, TV personality for 20 years.

Chad (36:41.404)
So how state?

Brian (36:42.6)
Ohio State, she puts a bunch of people around her that compliment her intelligence. She knows a lot, she's a smart person, she compliments what she doesn't know with other people in the room as they're making this important decision. That's another key idea for hiring well. Have a compliment of different talents in the room, not just all your buddies. And so they hire these two different people. And then when they have a bad season, they hit rocky times.

Jasper (36:43.974)
Thank

Chad (36:49.04)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (37:11.536)
right, storming, norming and all those things and business practices, right? When it's storming for your organization, sometimes you gotta cut it like with the Jets perhaps, but sometimes you have to fortify your leaders and say, you know what, this is a tough time. I acknowledge it, we are not doing well, but there are good times ahead. And so she hung in there with these two people that she hired and reinforced their leadership.

And that's where it took off from that point on is where that organization took off to where it's really a glimmer of reform today, which is really fun to watch.

Jasper (37:51.046)
It's a glimmer of hope for us all fans of all struggling teams.

Chad (37:54.268)
You can only help. You can only help. I've got my last question, Brian, is you played in college, you played in the pros. It's a hell of a lot different coaching college kids. And professional football, baseball doesn't matter, right? It's a hell of a lot different. So as everybody talks about.

Dion, know, making transcending and coming into the NFL. Don't think it'll happen this year. But the question is, if that does happen, do you think he will be as successful because it is an entirely different game? He knows the game. Don't get me wrong. But do you think he'll be successful?

Brian (38:38.76)
Great question. I don't know. I think he will be successful in anything he does because I think he's willing to adapt. So I think you'll be fine. I got to know him a little bit when I was playing. He's with the Cincinnati Reds and we had like a 10 or 15 minute conversation during battery products before the game started hours before the game started. He had just kind of started his relationship with God. He was just, you know, and when I'm hearing this in a podcast, he talked about

where he tried to commit suicide. And it was during that time, I don't know where the dates fall in, but it was during that time that I encountered him and had a conversation with him. So I'm not pretending we're friends or anything, but what I, you know, I was enamored by him. I'm a two sport guy. I wanted to be Dion or Bo Jackson when I was coming. I want to play both professionally. But the, the insight I got in that just 10 minute conversation about little stuff, I don't even remember what it was about, but I was like, my God, this guy is

different. This is not Neon Dion. I was talking to Dion Sanders and the person and the humility, the compassion for people, the awareness and intelligence of being of knowing what's going on and how the world works and what's going on in the world. I was knocked over by his humility for a guy that the last thing in the world you would say is he's humble. If you are only watching his interviews, you're only watching the Neon Dion part.

It's bipolar, it's completely different. And when you hear about the reasons why he's like that, you know, growing up with, you know, the parental situation, the family situation, I won't go into details with it, but it's, you know, you gotta be able to pay attention to the whole person and to be able to have the humility as a leader, having been through tough times and have the humility that, not everybody, everybody's dealing with something. Not everybody's gonna be able to do it every day.

So can I support them to help them consistently get what they need out of themselves and for us? He's just a fascinating guy. So I think specifically to your question, I think he'll do well in the NFL. I don't think he should go there yet. I don't think he wants to go there yet, but perhaps maybe down the road it'll happen. But he's building something special here in Colorado. hope he stays.

Jasper (40:58.682)
There's an opening in New York.

Chad (41:01.372)
I was going to ask you Jasper, what are your thoughts? What are your thoughts about...

Brian (41:03.4)
There's probably going to be two.

Jasper (41:06.53)
Is it? Yeah. mean, like Brian said, I think he has to be successful anywhere he goes. I think he's the type of coach that could literally coach any group of men and he'll get to know him and he'll show his humility and he'll also show his confidence. I think that's what also rubs off on people and will actually, and actually helps them because, know, let's not forget he's the type, he's the guy who brought the code. If you look good, you feel good, you play good.

Chad (41:27.9)
Mm-hmm.

Jasper (41:34.552)
And if you play well, they pay well, brought that to the world. he exudes confidence, in a way that you want to go and run through a wall for him. So yeah, I think he'll be, he can do a Tad Lasso and he can go to the premier league and coach a football team there. I'm very confident he could do that. So I think the NFL within those boundaries with his experience of playing in the NFL, knowing everyone, and he can literally take anyone as his assistant along with him.

Chad (41:58.834)
huh.

Jasper (42:04.218)
And he'll compliment his own deficiencies and he'll be able to succeed. And from a fan's perspective, you know, why would we not want to see that? You know, you hope it's the Jets, you hope, you know, even if it's not this year, it's way down the line. You hope it's your team that can be on the receiving end of that.

Chad (42:22.638)
Yeah, you think, I think Rob McElhenney and Ryan Reynolds should hire him to be the new manager at Wrexham. That's my thought.

Brian (42:22.706)
Chad, what do think?

Jasper (42:32.006)
Yeah. I mean, that documentary is already successful in its own way, but if you bring coach prime into the equation, yeah. Yeah. I can dig it.

Chad (42:37.86)
Yeah. Prime, prime, prime, Rexam, baby. Prime Rexam. Remember, Euro Prime Rexam. So remember, listener, building and rebuilding isn't easy and it doesn't happen overnight. Make it the right hire. Be real. Most importantly, subscribe and listen to the Talent Chasing Podcast where we will be back talking about breakdowns, interviews and just a bunch of fun shit. So we really appreciate you listening.

Brian (42:38.856)
Ha

Brian (42:42.92)
Euro Prime!

Jasper (43:04.634)
Everything.

Chad (43:08.09)
Share it with your friends, subscribe. Guys, we'll see you soon.

Jasper (43:12.23)
See you soon buddy.

Brian (43:13.522)
See you.

Chad (43:14.394)
Later.